Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Foundational Black Americans

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎. Notability is not a judgment about importance or whether a subject is "real" but whether there are reliable, independent, secondary sources that provide significant coverage (not passing mentions) of the article subject which doesn't seem to exist yet. It might be TOOSOON for this political movement so I'm hesitant to Salt this page with Full protection. I don't see a consensus to redirect although an editor can choose to do this. There is already an existing redirect at Foundational Black American. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:44, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Foundational Black Americans

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Seems to be heavy on Copy Vios, and may well mirror black Amercians. Slatersteven (talk) 17:10, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is a bit of a distinction between Black American and the "Foundational Black American" lineage which seems to more attached to a leader, community and quasi-movement along with its ethnic group emphasis. This distinction seems to be elaborated on in the Terminology section about its origins. Fba-warrior (talk) 17:33, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All of which can be said with "Whilst black American cultural leaders are sometimes called "Foundational Black Americans"". Does it need its own article? Slatersteven (talk) 17:36, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, unfortunately, because there are some black Americans who do not identify as a Foundational Black American and others who do. This is also a fairly new phenomenon that seems to becoming more popular, as many Black Americans do not know of this new "identity". There are some who consider the FBAs to be a movement or a cult. Fba-warrior (talk) 18:37, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So both wp:recentism and wp:not may come into play here? Slatersteven (talk) 18:40, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's my impression. I don't think it's caught on in an academic sense either. Oaktree b (talk) 20:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The issue of academic validity has been certified more in the clarity of qualifications of what an FBA is and additionally a statement of "ethnic purpose" later expounded on in the subsections which further deviates from what was mentioned in the African American/Black American wiki pages. While those have been hyper-linked to the FBA page, the Foundational Black American page takes you to a community within a community bio, so to speak. However, labeling it a sub-community is a bit of misnomer. These are the same people with a uniquely different life scope and acknowledged identity. Fba-warrior (talk) 21:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete or convert back to redirect Content fork from Tariq Nasheed, which this page used to redirect to. Don't see justification for a separate page. I also removed, as is required, most of the copyright violations and asked for revdel. Did not check rest of article for close paraphrasing or other copyvios — rsjaffe 🗣️ 17:51, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect (WP:TNT), even if there is a notable topic in there writing it would involve removing basically everything currently there... We seem to have a lot of OR with the reliable sources for the most part not actually discussing the concept... For example the Coates piece does not mention Foundational Black Americans, it says that the enslavement of black Americans is foundational to American history. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:55, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's my issue, some strange SYNTH going on, when the source talks about in one way and it's being used here in another. Not that this isn't a valid topic for an article, we just don't have enough RS to build upon. Oaktree b (talk) 20:10, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think the notable concept as it were also largely overlaps with American Descendants of Slavery, I am not an expert in the area though. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:35, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nothing in that article that is properly sourced ties specifically to Foundational Black Americans other than the flag and the term. Even the flag is not sourced, though I expect there to be some acceptable source for it somewhere. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 23:40, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Rsjaffe Regarding the flag, we can't say things such as "Foundational Black Americans usually have a unique flag ..." Where is any evidence for this? How could there be evidence when most people who might meet the definition have almost certainly never heard of the term of the flag. Note that there several websites associated with the term, all of which seem to be selling something. Doug Weller talk 07:19, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The term and flag are both pretty self-explanatory as you have numerous visual of individuals wearing the term and holding the flag at the annual Foundational Black American conferences and rallies. There have been multiple registered events under the branding of this name alias. The online community also shows evidence of some kind of cyber allegiance on twitter/x, youtube, instagram. facebooks, etc. which is typical of some of these groups start in the social media age. Also, this term has been used by other news media outlets, most specifically "African News Diaspora", formerly run MSNBC show Tiffany Cross, and "Unfiltered with Roland Martin." Fba-warrior (talk) 13:28, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Fba-warrior How many FBAs do you think there are? What % have the flage? Doug Weller talk 16:04, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know. that ones kind of a tough one. I would say that there is anywhere between 50,000 to 100,000 people who identify as FBA. Maybe 10% owns the flag. 1 out of every 10 ppl. But im just guestimating. Do we have number on how many Amerians own an american flag? Seems like that data would be hard to come up with Fba-warrior (talk) 13:46, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Based off event turn out, there is usually range between 4000 - 5000 people that show up to each of its events, showing, conferences, etc. Fba-warrior (talk) 13:46, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

American Descendants of Slavery is a movement and terminology founded and used by Yvetter Carnell, if I am not mistaken. There is seemingly some overlap due to these people all being from similar histories and lineages but the Foundational Black American identity is a bit more distinct. The differences would be I assume the loyalty of group base to which founder's philosophies and personalities. One being loyal to Tariq Nasheed and his push for reparations through an online campaign and independent political process. The other being an actual grassroots organization that was registered in Chicago I believe and had a meeting building

. Fba-warrior (talk) 13:34, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Theres numerous articles btw on the difference between FBA and ADOS. Heres one for example, maybe this needs to be explained on the fba page

https://dwomowale.medium.com/why-pan-africanism-matters-lessons-from-ados-vs-fba-c643223b5672 Fba-warrior (talk) 14:15, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Medium isn't a reliable source, see WP:RSNP. That blog in fact says " Tariq decided to use Foundational Black American (FBA) and then began using FBA interchangeably with ADOS, which created a lot of confusion." If that's right, then it doesn't explain the difference except for the agreement between Nasheed and ADOS. Doug Weller talk 16:09, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Ethnic groups and United States of America. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 18:15, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: Newsone doesn't strike me as a RS, rest are name drops... This can easily be handled in the article about African Americans. I don't see much for sourcing beyond their website. Oaktree b (talk) 20:07, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Oaktree b I took newsone to RSN May last year for its use in the earlier version of this article.[1]. Doug Weller talk 16:16, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: The term is mostly used in regards to Covid 19 and vaccines [2] in the Black population, which is another idea, distinct from this one. There could be an article there, but using these sources here doesn't help. Oaktree b (talk) 20:12, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is not a term used by scholars, and a few modern references and usages do not add up to the claim made in the opening sentence. Delete. Drmies (talk) 21:46, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete/Redirect, No precise RS, and this term doesn't seem notable in itself. No need for this to have its own page. — Alien333 (what I did & why I did it wrong) 14:28, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Tariq Nasheed#Views and reception and then protect it. Deleting will only result in someone re-creating it, and then we'll be right back here for the third time. - Sumanuil. _{(talk to me)} 07:07, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, its a unique ethnic phenomenon. seems to be transpiring among African Americans. I noticed some of the origins are when they discuss their African heritage, “what allegiance do they have with the US”. more seem to be identifying with the term. The first time I heard it was on Twitter when a black person said “Obama didn’t fight for foundational black Americans because his dad’s from Kenya!” Strange! I thought, what does that have to do with anything??

I decided to look up the term and found “FBA” on urban dictionary with similar definition as the one on this page and I also found this article. apparently this is a huge conversation being had among them, like an ethnogenesis of some sort!

https://www.fashionghana.com/site/fba-foundational-black-americans/ Phil Whidwick (talk) 04:09, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Phil Whidwick This is your first edit which means two things - you found out about this off wiki or by email and you don't know our policies. That website says "FashionGHANA.com; African Fashion Magazine, Blog ..." certainly an unsigned article in a fashion magazine can't be used as a source. And the Urban Dictionary is user generated and not a reliable source any more than WIkipedia is.Doug Weller talk 16:27, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Doug. I searched online & found the page a couple of days. Was disappointed it’s up for deletion? as I was tryi kg to figure out more about this group. Thought I’d add my two cents Phil Whidwick (talk) 13:34, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also don’t you seem to be having a bit of a bias? It’s like you just said urban dictionary is just like here on wiki, a bunch of people writing based on their sources and evidence found. Phil Whidwick (talk) 13:37, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There should be an article on this ethnogenesis group for sure. Thank you for your time :) Phil Whidwick (talk) 13:38, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And copious OR. Slatersteven (talk) 14:56, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Salt title, delete and restore old redirect this has too many dubious sources and OR to be a viable article. Doug Weller talk 11:10, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

{{cleanup article}} a couple references should be better cited and certain sections in the article need to be elaborated on more and tied back to original topic — Preceding unsigned comment added by Smearface Researcher (talk • contribs) 12:28, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, this topic is REAL. article just needs extensive cleanup in certain areas. Ive heard this referred to as a hate group before and in other instances just another movement colored minorites/POC gravitate towards.Either way definitely needs to be exposed and/or relevant information on it. I will help with some of the corrections if necessary Smearface Researcher (talk) 03:07, 20 June 2024 (UTC) Smearface Researcher (talk • contribs) 12:36, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I feel at this point some people need to read wp:canvassing and wp:consensus it is not a vote where the most votes win, it is based on policy-based arguments, so having one-day accounts fetch up here to "VOTE" will not change the result, the closer will base it on the strength of the arguments, not their number. Also please read WP:NOTDUMB. Slatersteven (talk) 12:41, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure why you took the liberty to message personally about the policy but seeing some of your responses here and to the message you sent me please respect WP:FAITH and WP:HA Wikipedia's policy on harassment and good faith. and also WP:DONTBITE just because the editors are new does not mean they don't have something insightful to add Smearface Researcher (talk) 13:25, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I did not, please read wp:indent it was not indented as a personal reply to you, but as a general notice to anyone else who might fetch up here. Also how am I harrasing you, I have posted on your talk page (and (very arguably) here, this is not harassment. Harresment is following you to multiple pages to attack your edits, I have not done so (the only two others you have edited) Slatersteven (talk) 13:32, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also informing you of how things work here is not bitting you, it it telling you how we do things. Which (as it was not a reply to you anyway) I did not do. Slatersteven (talk) 13:54, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Smearface Researcher You aren't saying you are new, right? Doug Weller talk 14:46, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Doug Weller no. I have a new account. had to make a new account after a long hiatus Smearface Researcher (talk) 01:35, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:IMPERFECT this article also probably needs mentioning of Claude Anderson. since apparently that's the guy tyreek Nashed stole his movement from

Claud Anderson (no e} is mentioned in Black Capitalism which discusses his two self-published books, eg "Black Labor, White Wealth: The Search for Power and Economic Justice" on Amazon.co.uk{link was blocked by a filter). That article needs work.

His Instagram page also lead me to foundationalblackamericans1526 [3] who has self-published some weird books, eg "Black people in the Americas before Columbus (Scholars and Explorers who admitted there were Indigenous Black people in the Americas Series)"[4] and this one that mentions FBAs[5]. Also to [6] I don't k now why people spell his name Claud and link material spelling it Claude. All so weird. Doug Weller talk 15:42, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, salt - This page confuses two things. The FBA is a non notable attempt at creating a race based American political movement using fringe history. The page then pretends to be about Black Americans in general. It isn't. 12.75.41.47 (talk) 17:38, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that is a bit strange as I was under the impression it was spelled with e. Either way I think its worth mentioning the guy got his movement from him. I found this one [7] even he said it himself Smearface Researcher (talk) 01:31, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Smearface Researcher X isn't a reliable source. I'm not sure I've seen any reliably published sources about this. Doug Weller talk 06:28, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What is fringe about the history they claim? You can't just make a big statement like that and not explain it. Also, "pretends to be about Black Americans"?? That makes no sense Fba-warrior (talk) 13:38, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"in general". It isn't about all descendants of slavery, it's about people, number not known, who call themselves FBAs. Doug Weller talk 15:45, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - this group is no different than any other ethnic identifier/political movement. I haven't seen not one good argument for taking this page down except for User:Doug Weller talk about the reliable sources, which CAN BE FIXED! There is enough evidence and people that identify with this group that there should be more information presented on this. they can as easily just be categorized as ethnic party or an ethnic club tbh. Still enough to warrant a wiki page on it. I stand on keeping this page alive but having a serious talk on how to improve it — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fba-warrior (talk • contribs) 14:00, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.