STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
Former British Prime Minister Tony Blair knows the United States is divided.
TONY BLAIR: But the irony is at the same time, I think in the last two or three years, America's reemerged as easily the strongest country on Earth. And when I say this to Americans, they sort of look at me in a slightly puzzled way.
INSKEEP: He says Americans overlook their economic and military power - calling for energy independence, for example, when they're the world's largest oil producer. This example came up as I spoke with Blair about his new book, "On Leadership." He's spent recent years advising leaders around the world, in this time of division and disinformation.
BLAIR: Democracy isn't actually about finding out what the people want and just trying to do it. Democracy is about setting out a vision and a plan for the country and persuading people to follow it.
INSKEEP: When he was prime minister, Blair sometimes did what the people wanted and sometimes didn't. In the 1990s, he dragged his Labour Party from the political left to the center, leading them to power. In the 2000s, he eroded public support when he backed the U.S. invasion of Iraq. After his departure, Conservative leaders gave many British voters the Brexit they wanted, which only led to years of chaos, as they failed to make good on promises of power and prosperity.
BLAIR: When Keir Starmer became the Labour prime minister in the recent election in the U.K, he was the sixth prime minister in eight years. I mean, you can't run a country like that, I'm afraid, and succeed. So I think there is a big sense in the U.K - and this is to the advantage of the new government - that, you know, we need a period of stability. And we need to do some long-term thinking because in the end, you know, if you want to change a country and improve a country, you've got to take decisions that are not just short-term responses to emergencies but are long-term responses to the deep underlying problems.
INSKEEP: Because you write about populism, I want to stay on this topic for a moment and look at the rest of Europe. You have a fascist government in Italy. You have right-wing parties in France and Germany that, in recent weeks, have not taken control of the country but made advances. What do those election results tell you?
BLAIR: Well, that there's a big wave of dissatisfaction. And, you know, what I always say to people about populism is populists don't, on the whole, invent grievances. They exploit them. They tend to ride the anger rather than provide the answer. But it's important, for those of us who oppose that type of short-term populist politics - you've got to provide answers to problems. So if there's a problem, there's no point in complaining about the fact there is a problem. You've got to sit down and work out the solution to it and a solution that's fair.
Now, I believe, by the way, that even in the countries you've mentioned - if you take Italy, for example, the prime minister, Meloni, you know, even though elected on a far-right platform, has actually significantly moderated in government. And in the recent French election, in the end, the far-right-wing party did not win a majority. If you are able to provide a strong centrist alternative, most people will usually vote for it.
INSKEEP: If I think about one common issue in country after country - the European countries we named, the U.K. at the time of Brexit, the United States right now - one common issue, I suppose, would be immigration. And I'd like to know, as a centrist leader, the way you would want a democratic government to think about that problem, where you may say to yourself, I have a particular view of immigration. I think it is broadly good for my country, but I recognize that a lot of my own public doesn't see it that way at all.
BLAIR: You see, I think your sentiment around immigration involves two different groups of people. One are people who are anti-immigrant. They don't like immigrants. But I think that's a minority. And then you've got a group of people who understand that immigration can have benefits, but worry that there are no controls. And I have a sort of very clear mantra around this - if you don't have rules, you get prejudices. And therefore, what's important is that you create an immigration system which people think has integrity, where you decide who comes into the country and who doesn't. Now, if you have such a system, I think most people will congregate around a position of saying, yeah, no, controlled immigration can be a good thing. I mean, it's been a good thing in America. It's been a good thing in the U.K.
INSKEEP: Politically speaking, does it almost not matter what the rules are, so long as people perceive them as being enforced?
BLAIR: Well, I think in the end, it probably does matter. But you're right in the sense that the most important thing is that people want to know that whether you come into our country or not is a decision, and not an accident.
INSKEEP: Tony Blair is the author of "On Leadership." Pleasure to talk with you again. Thanks so much.
BLAIR: Thank you. Thank you very much, indeed. All the best.
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