Paul's Reviews > The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason

The End of Faith by Sam Harris
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did not like it
bookshelves: the-new-atheism

Another yawner from the "New" atheists. This is another book by a pretentious atheist who just can't believe that there are still theists. "Arrrgh! Don't you know we've beaten you theists fair and square. It is just obvious that theism is false. If you won't give up your theistic beliefs by our obviously superior rational arguments, then I'll shame you in to giving them up."

Ho hum.

Harris trots out the usual dusty canards of the New Atheists: religion is evil, it's the cause of all the wars, it's gonna destroy mankind, etc.

Of course none of this is ever based on any serious scientific research, odd for the priests of Science. Go read the detailed anthropological, sociological, political, environmental, etc., work by some of the actual scientists who study wars &c. Go read your Pape, Pearse, Waller, Rummel, Livingstone Smith, &c, and then get back to me.

Harris serves up the re-heated evidentialist objection to faith throughout the book. He repeatedly claims that "If you don't have evidence in favor of your beliefs, then your belief is unjustified or irrational." Of course, all we need to do is inquire about this belief itself. Is it justified and rational? Then it must have evidence in its favor. So, what is it? Assume Harris can give us something, call it E. Call his evidentialist constraint his anti-theistic security blanket ASB. So, he gives us E for ASB. Now, what about E? Does he believe it? If so, is his belief justified and rational? If so, then he needs evidence for E, call it E1. So, E1 backs up E which backs up ASB. Does he believe E1? Is his belief rational and justified? Then he needs E2, and obviously this can go on ad infinitum. So, his anti-theistic security blanket just writes one bad check to cover another, and another, and another....

Harris also sets up a false dichotomy. He claims that there are two kinds of theists, and only two: extremists and moderates. Extremists want to kill everyone if it would solve the problem of heresy and unbelief. Moderates aren't any better. They think that all beliefs, no matter what they are, should be allowed. He then says the moderates are complicit in the world's destruction since they allow the extremists to operate. But here we hit upon some major ambiguity. One can allow people to have whatever belief they want, so long as they don't act on those beliefs in a way that is harmful to others in an unjustified way. See the problem in Harris's reasoning? A further problem is that he claims that we cannot choose our beliefs. This is called doxastic voluntarism. This is fine as far as it goes. It's philosophically viable, and a strong position. The problem, then, is that he claims we shouldn't allow people to have unjustified beliefs. So can people control what they believe voluntarily or not? A third problem is that I am a theist and I don't fit in either category. Though I fit in the moderate camp in an uninteresting way (the belief/act distinction), I don't think people should have unjustified beliefs or false beliefs. But, I don't think the extremist solution is correct. Indeed, it is one of those beliefs others shouldn't have. Harris tries to get as much traction as he can out of making false dichotomies like this.

Another problem is that he still holds to justification is necessary or sufficient for knowledge. This has fallen out of favor with contemporary epistemologists. In fact, almost all agree that theistic and atheistic beliefs can be justified (cf. Plantinga's Warrant trilogy). But this doesn't mean much. Edmund Gettier rather put a damper on all this. So, Harris pulls from some outdated concepts in epistemology. This is rather odd considering he's at Stanford. I'm sure his philosophy profs cringed at his book.

Here's another example of how Harris makes ridiculous and self-defeating comments:

"As long as a person maintains that his beliefs represent an actual state of the world (visible or invisible, spiritual or mundane), he must believe that his beliefs are a consequence of the way the world is. This, by definition, leaves him vulnerable to new evidence. Indeed, if there were no conceivable change in the world that could get a person to question his ... beliefs, this would prove that his beliefs were not predicated upon his taking any state of the world into account" - p.63

i) What about a person's belief in the law of non-contradiction? Is he "vulnerable" to new evidence? Could there be a "conceivable" change in the world that could get this person to question his belief? Isn't the LNC part of what allows something to even be conceivable in the first place?

ii) What about a person's belief in her existence? Is there a conceivable change that could get a person to question her existence? Who would be questioning it?

iii) What about Harris's belief on this matter? Is there a way the world could be that would make it false? Then it would still be true since this new belief a "consequence of the way the world is." A conceivable way the world could be that would make Harris question this belief would affirm his strictures and thus not make him "vulnerable." But a consequence of this view is that your beliefs must be "vulnerable" in this way.

This is all to symptomatic, I'm afraid, of the new atheism. Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens &c. are rather embarrassing emissaries for a group that prides themselves on how "rational" and "smart" and "erudite" they is [sic], as opposed to us irrational, stupid, and toothless fundies.

Yawn, the "New" atheism.

Go Sammy, it's your birthday!
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Reading Progress

Started Reading
January 1, 2009 – Finished Reading
January 4, 2009 – Shelved
January 4, 2009 – Shelved as: the-new-atheism

Comments Showing 1-27 of 27 (27 new)

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message 1: by Werner (new)

Werner Paul, I haven't read this book; but one article I've read says that in it, Harris makes the chilling statement that (referring to religious belief) "some propositions are so dangerous that it may even be ethical to kill people for believing them." Is that an accurate quote, in context? If it is, I'd say that in the case of Harris and his ilk, we're not simply dealing with people who diagree with others in uncivil and mean-spirited fashion, or even with people who are content with just hating others for their beliefs. We're dealing with dangerous maniacs on a mental and moral par with Adolf Hitler, whose writings are aimed at sowing the seed for re-opened gas chambers.


Stefan Werner: I know this is some 8 months late, but I don't think Harris ever makes a statement. Harris is a genuinely nice guy, and considering his major field is the area of morality (he's a neuroscientist but he deals with morality a great deal), I don't think he'd even imagine saying such things!

"mental and moral par with Adolf Hitler"... really? I mean... REALLY!?


message 3: by Werner (new)

Werner Stefan, I don't know if the quote is accurate or not (that's why I asked someone who'd read the book). If you haven't read it either, I don't imagine you know anything more about the accuracy of the quote than I do. (I suppose that when I have more time, I can research it online; I was hoping not to have to.) That there are neuroscientists and other intellectuals who "deal with morality a great deal," and gleefully stand traditional morality on its head, isn't an idea that I find as inconceivable (especially after having been exposed to a fair number of their statements) as you profess to. If he holds the view I've seen attributed to him, I stand by my assessment. And what would YOUR assessment be, of anybody who wants to put killing others for their beliefs up for discussion?


message 4: by LeAnn (new)

LeAnn Werner and Stefan,

I saw this comment in Werner's feed, so I hope you don't mind me chiming in because this is a topic that interests me greatly. I need to go searching, but I just discovered Harris last week as a proponent of "New Atheism" (I'd never heard the term before. What Werner claims as a quote of Harris sounds familiar.

Stefan, thank you for reading and writing this review. I'm not nearly as smart or well read as I'd like to be, but it's comforting to read someone else who is. Unfortunately, Dawkins et. al. are way too persuasive due to their credentials as scientists (however, Dawkins has apparently expressed puzzlement about how some of his esteemed colleagues can also be believers -- see his Wikipedia page).


message 5: by Werner (new)

Werner LeAnn, Paul (not Stefan) is the person who wrote the review, though he hasn't commented on it so far. :-)


message 6: by Stefan (last edited Jan 02, 2013 02:41PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Stefan Werner wrote: "If you haven't read it either, I don't imagine you know anything more about the accuracy of t..."

I read it some time in 2011 and it sits by my side, so even though it was a while ago I think I would have remembered a comment of such a ferocious, unfounded nature (I don't).

Of course I could be wrong.

"what would YOUR assessment be, of anybody who wants to put killing others for their beliefs up for discussion?"

I think you'd find most people - including myself - stand diametrically opposed to such radical views. I'm an atheist and am a massive fan of Harris' work (although I disagree with his views that objective morality does/can exist), but I could never condone such a statement. Of course it could be taken out of context, i'll see if I can find it on the internet.


Stefan I've found it:

" His [Harris']essay "Response to Controversy" also clarified the context of the apparently troubling passage, which was that he was referring to very specific cases like that of the religiously motivated terrorist, where the attempt to kill a murderous terrorist would essentially constitute killing someone for a belief they hold, namely the belief that unbelievers of their particular faith should be killed"


message 8: by LeAnn (new)

LeAnn Werner wrote: "LeAnn, Paul (not Stefan) is the person who wrote the review, though he hasn't commented on it so far. :-)"

Oh! Boy! Mea culpa! Sorry, Paul!


message 9: by LeAnn (last edited Jan 02, 2013 04:19PM) (new)

LeAnn Stefan wrote: "I've found it:

" His [Harris']essay "Response to Controversy" also clarified the context of the apparently troubling passage, which was that he was referring to very specific cases like that of t..."


I'm not sure -- I'm not comfortable claiming that I know for sure what the Catholic Church teaches (and it's obviously very pro-life) -- but Harris's position doesn't sound so far from the Catechism:

Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm – without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself – the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity “are very rare, if not practically non-existent.” (Catechism of the Catholic Church 2267)



message 10: by LeAnn (new)

LeAnn LeAnn wrote: "Werner wrote: "LeAnn, Paul (not Stefan) is the person who wrote the review, though he hasn't commented on it so far. :-)"

Oh! Boy! Mea culpa! Sorry, Paul!"


And sorry Stefan! I'm really not paying attention to the details today.


message 11: by Werner (new)

Werner LeAnn, if Harris' original statement was simply that it "may even be ethical" to kill terrorists who are in the act of attempting to do violence to others or already have, there wouldn't be any "controversy" to write a "response" to; nobody but pacifists would disagree. In that case, he wouldn't have felt a need to qualify his words with "may," and it wouldn't have been necessary to drag reference to "beliefs" into the statement at all. People who are murdering others, or trying to, are killed for their actions, not their "beliefs." (It makes no difference whether they're motivated by religious, atheistic, political, racist, or whatever beliefs, or whether, like the shooter at Sandy Hook Elementary School, they're simply deranged individuals not motivated by beliefs as such at all.) Harris' original quoted statement, of course, makes no reference to actions at all, only beliefs.

If I correctly understand Harris' supposed clarification of the "context" of his words, what he is proposing is something broader: that it "may" be ethically okay to preemptively kill someone "who holds the belief that unbelievers of their particular faith should be killed," even if he/she has not actually tried to do so. That would explain the controversy, and his studied use of the fig-leaf qualifier "may." Of course, it's a cardinal principle of civilized jurisprudence that people are held to account for things they've actually done, not things they allegedly may do in the future. The contrary principle of preemptive "justice" opens up potential for abuses that most of us, I think, would recognize as socially dangerous.


message 12: by Paul (new) - rated it 1 star

Paul Sorry I missed all these comments, esp. Werner's 3/4 of a year ago! Here's the context in which the quote appears:

*******

The power that belief has over our emotional lives appears to be total. For every emotion that you are capable of feeling, there is surely a belief that could invoke it in a matter of moments. Consider the following proposition:

Your daughter is being slowly tortured in an English jail.

What is it that stands between you and the absolute panic that such a proposition would loose in the mind and body of a person who believed it? Perhaps you do not have a daughter, or you know her to be safely at home, or you believe that English jailors are renowned for their congeniality. Whatever the reason, the door to belief has not yet swung upon its hinges.

The link between belief and behaviour raises the stakes considerably. Some propositions are so dangerous that it may even be ethical to kill people for believing them. This may seem an extraordinary claim, but it merely enunciates an ordinary fact about the world in which we live. Certain beliefs place their adherents beyond the reach of every peaceful means of persuasion, while inspiring them to commit acts of extraordinary violence against others. There is, in fact, no talking to some people. If they cannot be captured, and they often cannot, otherwise tolerant people may be justified in killing them in self-defense. This is what the United States attempted in Afghanistan, and it is what we and other Western powers are bound to attempt, at an even greater cost to ourselves and to innocents abroad, elsewhere in the Muslim world. We will continue to spill blood in what is, at bottom, a war of ideas. (The End of Faith, p52-53.)


message 13: by LeAnn (new)

LeAnn Paul wrote: "Sorry I missed all these comments, esp. Werner's 3/4 of a year ago! Here's the context in which the quote appears:

*******

It seems to me that one of the key statements that Harris makes is this: "If they cannot be captured, and they often cannot, otherwise tolerant people may be justified in killing them in self-defense."

If it's not preemptive, it seems self evident as Werner says, that 'otherwise tolerant people' are justified in killing others in self defense in the midst of an act of violence against them. It also seems self evident that it's ethical for 'otherwise tolerant people' to kill those who have already committed an act of violence, as long as they are certain (and this is the problematic part) that 'this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives' (from the Catechism as quoted above) against future unjust aggression.

Another key Harris statement is this: "Some propositions are so dangerous that it may even be ethical to kill people for believing them."

While Harris didn't use "preemptively" here, I believe that it's implied given what 'otherwise tolerant people' will condone. Unless you can argue successfully that 'otherwise tolerant people' would never justify killing anyone, then I think you have to accept Werner's assertion.

********

On another note, I find it ludicrous that Harris sets himself up as a moral authority on the strength of his background as a cognitive neuroscientist, as if that's all the credentials one needs. I don't have the ability to evaluate his research (what little is described on his Wikipedia page), but my husband has a Ph.D. in Computer Science in AI (from one of the top universities in this field). He's either consulted with a lot of neuroscientists or read a lot of cognitive science in the last 20+ years. He also has a degree in philosophy. I don't think he feels qualified to set himself up as a moral authority based on any of it.

It appears that Harris may have done some of his cognitive science research after writing this book (the LA Times article dated 9/2009 linked from Wikipedia says that he'd 'recently' completed his dissertation). So his brain imagining came after his theses, which my husband didn't think were supported by his research (at least given the brief description on Wikipedia and the LA Times article). My husband also said that if anyone claims that science knows what different parts of the brain "do," they're lying.

Actually, talking to my husband usually gives me a lot of perspective about what science can and cannot answer and how some scientists are leveraging their standing among a generally science illiterate media and population to promote their own worldview, which is supported by their science.


message 14: by Henrik (new)

Henrik Interesting review and interesting discussion following it. Thank you:-)


message 15: by Paul (new) - rated it 1 star

Paul LeAnn wrote: . . .On another note, I find it ludicrous that Harris sets himself up as a moral authority on the strength of his background as a cognitive neuroscientist, as if that's all the credentials one needs.. . .

Harris confuses scientism with science. The latter is fine, the former is cured by reading widely in the philosophy of science.


message 16: by Paul (new) - rated it 1 star

Paul Glenn, relax. The "New Atheism" is actually a fairly widely used term. It's used by atheists, even. If you did some research and reading on the matter, you'd find out why the phrase has been employed and its origins. For example, you could read the IEP article on the subject:

http://www.iep.utm.edu/n-atheis/

Or, if you had been widely read in atheist literature, you'd have noted Stenger's (an atheist) 2009 book titled, "The New Atheism."

Anyway, I know many atheists. I used to be one, actually. I know many current ones—though I must admit, the elbows I choose to rub usually have MAs or PhDs in philosophy, as the "common man" atheist is typically boorish and ignorant of the relevant issues.

Now, atheists certainly do have "meetings every week." There are secular and free thought groups that meet weekly. I have actually been to some of these meetings.

Moreover, you shouldn't presume to speak for atheists. Many atheists do proclaim an eternal truth. Or eternal truths. For example, atheists can be realists or platonists about mathematical entities (e.g., Shapiro) or even moral truths (e.g., Shafer-Landau). This would involve affirming "eternal truths" such as "2+2=4" or "if you harm a child for fun, you have done something wrong." So, some atheists certainly do proclaim eternal truths. More generally, however, since you deny that God exists, and you think it is true that he doesn't, then, since God is, if he exists, a necessary being, then his non-existence would be a necessary and eternal truth. As such, you affirm the eternal truth "God does not exist," unless you think this proposition has only been true at some time but not others. But if that is the case, then "God exists" would have been true at some time, t. But since God is a necessary being, then if "God exists" was true at some time, t, it would be true at all times t. So, you affirm a universal truth.

Now, the burden of proof is a tricky business. For example, atheist Graham Oppy declares in his excellent book Arguing About Gods that both sides have a burden to meet. Actually, philosophically speaking, the burden in these debates isn't fixed, but switches from side to side as the context of dialogue proceeds. Moreover, who has the burden is often a function of the prior beliefs the sides bring to the table. For example, some respectable strains of theism claim that all men know that God exists, per Romans 1. Now, you claim you do not know that God exists, thus you, by this denial, have asserted that Romans 1 is false and that this kind of God—a God who declares himself plainly to all men—does not exist, and this is a positive claim. Mind you, I'm not putting this forward to debate, but to point out that burden can depend upon the priors of the interlocutors.

As far as religious wars, that's another ignorant claim. Those who have actually studied the issue, i.e., specialists, have noted that there is no single cause and that economic and geographic features loom more largely than religious. When religion is invoked, it is often as a *foil*. At all events, I have several books, written by non-believers (as far as I know), that debunk the claim that "religions cause wars." You can check my goodreads library for the relevant material.

Anyway, it appears that, ironically, it's *you* who needs to do some serious study and familiarize yourself with some relevant literature, especially what the best and brightest on the atheist side—i.e., *not* the hacks like Hitchens, Dawkins, Dennett, and Harris—have to say.


message 17: by Gunjan (new) - added it

Gunjan Guha "..since god exists at time some time t, then he exists at all times t..."!!!

Seriously....??? I mean, do you really mean what you've tried to mean???

Well... How do you prove that "god is a necessary being"????

Even if I disregard the non-evident claim of necessity, I truly am waiting for evidence that can prove that this 'god' character is an ENTITY to begin with.

Not only among atheists, "common man" theists (or whatever they call themselves) are boorish and ignorant too... and in a tad bit greater degree at that. Trying to substitute facts with quasi-science ain't smart.

BTW... I'm a PhD... and I won't mind being categorized among the hacks like Dawkins et al.


message 18: by Paul (new) - rated it 1 star

Paul >Seriously....??? I mean, do you really mean what you've tried to >mean???

Why do you think acting outrageously incredulous and peppering your comment with punctuation marks adds anything substantive, at all, to your comment? In any event, note the phrase was a conditional: *If* God is a necessary being, and exists at some time t, then he exists at all times t. This is simply *analytic*.

>Well... How do you prove that "god is a necessary being"????

Of course, that is irrelevant since the remark was simply a deduction from one interpretation of what my interlocutor could have meant.

>Even if I disregard the non-evident claim of necessity, I truly am >waiting for evidence that can prove that this 'god' character is an >ENTITY to begin with.

I didn't make a "claim of necessity." Pay attention. Moreover, a "character" isn't an "entity," and I didn't and wouldn't say such a thing.

>Trying to substitute facts with quasi-science ain't smart.

No one did that; moreover, you're not doing yourself any favors in the "smarts" department. In fact, saying "aint" aint smart.

>BTW... I'm a PhD... and I won't mind being categorized among the >hacks like Dawkins et al.

I call B.S. But if you are, you clearly don't have a PhD in philosophy. And if you have a PhD in *any* field, I'd be surprised, but if you do, it's from a degree mill or online school. If not, then your school should be embarrassed by giving someone like you a PhD. And, you certainly earn the "hack" label. Good job. Indeed, tell you what I'll do: I hereby confer on you a PhD, you are a doctor of hack.

Now, don't comment again or I'll delete your comments. You simply are not worth my time. Run along, fundy atheist.


message 19: by Tim (new) - rated it 5 stars

Tim Good God, people! All such a fuss about someone saying that we may be justified in killing someone else because their religious beliefs are about to harm another person. Now he's being compared to Hitler! Forgive me for reminding you that Britain and America basically flattened the shit out of Dresden and Berlin, killing millions of innocent civilians, and to this day feel morally righteous about doing so. Not to mention those two nasty little incidents with the atomic bombs in Japan. And now people get all up in arms about some guy who's done what, exactly? Aha! But it's ok when your military or government makes the call, right? Just as long as its not, God forbid, an intellectual! Get some perspective here please!


message 20: by Paul (new) - rated it 1 star

Paul Hi Tim,

Much more was discussed here. Anyway, I have no clue what you mean by a "belief" that is "_about to_ harm another person." How did beliefs get those causal powers!

No, Harris didn't qualify it as you have. He said "some propositions [p] are so dangerous that it would be ethical to kill people for believing them." Get that? Merely *believing* p is enough to get someone killed.

At any rate, this could get fun. Per Harris, what, precisely, *is* a 'belief' and a 'proposition' and how, exactly, do they posses the causal powers Harris ascribes to them. Moreover, it is certainly plausible that some people could have evolved to become absolutely enraged upon believing 2+2=4, should we "kill people for believing 2+2=4." Or, look at all the murderous leftist regimes and how many people they've killed—far, far more than religion. So, should we start killing people for believing in socialism, fascism, communism, et alia?


Graham Earlier this year Sam Harris responded to this case of quote-mining.

Paul provided the paragraph from End of Faith in which the quote in question appears but I thought - for convenience - I would provide it again here:

"The link between belief and behavior raises the stakes considerably. Some propositions are so dangerous that it may even be ethical to kill people for believing them. This may seem an extraordinary claim, but it merely enunciates an ordinary fact about the world in which we live. Certain beliefs place their adherents beyond the reach of every peaceful means of persuasion, while inspiring them to commit acts of extraordinary violence against others. There is, in fact, no talking to some people. If they cannot be captured, and they often cannot, otherwise tolerant people may be justified in killing them in self-defense. This is what the United States attempted in Afghanistan, and it is what we and other Western powers are bound to attempt, at an even greater cost to ourselves and to innocents abroad, elsewhere in the Muslim world. We will continue to spill blood in what is, at bottom, a war of ideas."

Sam Harris responds as follows (from his blog):

"This paragraph appears after a long discussion of the role that belief plays in governing human behavior, and it should be read in that context. Some critics have interpreted the second sentence of this passage to mean that I advocate simply killing religious people for their beliefs. Granted, I made the job of misinterpreting me easier than it might have been, but such a reading remains a frank distortion of my views. To someone reading the passage in context, it should be clear that I am discussing the link between belief and behavior. The fact that belief determines behavior is what makes certain beliefs so dangerous.

When one asks why it would be ethical to drop a bomb on Ayman al-Zawahiri, the current leader of al Qaeda, the answer cannot be, “Because he killed so many people in the past.” To my knowledge, the man hasn’t killed anyone personally. However, he is likely to get a lot of innocent people killed because of what he and his followers believe about jihad, martyrdom, the ascendancy of Islam, etc. A willingness to take preventative action against a dangerous enemy is compatible with being against the death penalty (which I am). Whenever we can capture and imprison jihadists, we should. But in many cases this is either impossible or too risky. Would it have been better if we had captured Osama bin Laden? In my view, yes. Do I think the members of Seal Team Six should have assumed any added risk to bring him back alive? Absolutely not."


Simon Did we read the same book? I'm not sure how any theist could cling on to his fantasies with a straight face after finishing this. What possible justification for believing in a God could you have left? Given your entire belief system is based upon illogical, irrational fallacies, have you also made room for Zeus and the thousands of other Gods man has believed in over the last few thousand years? Or is it just YOUR God that is right? (the God worshipped by your parents, where you just happened to have been born I'm guessing is the "one and only" God right? - what a coincidence!)


message 23: by eHead (new) - added it

eHead "i) What about a person's belief in the law of non-contradiction?"

Well, it's a matter of debate whether logical "laws" like this represent "states of the world" or are more accurately considered as constraints on thinking and rationality. Similarly, the ontological status of mathematical entities is up for grabs, and even the status of so called laws of nature (F=mc^2). Even if one is a realist about such things, it's easy to see how people might draw a distinction between the "states" of a system, and the laws governing which states are even possible, and the "laws" governing the thinking process that are required for the logical domain to even be self-consistent. If one wanted to interpret Harris generously they would assume merely saying that it doesn't make any sense to declare a given state of a system exists if there is no empirical evidence that could possible confirm or deny it one way or the other.

Theists realize this which is why most of them (aside from a few searching for Noah's Ark) focus most of their effort on trying to show how theism is logical necessary. Most of the classical "proofs" seem silly by today's standards. Even much heralded "proofs" have a difficult time with anything other than the omnipotent "trait" of God. Indeed, usually they are "symmetric" under the operation of Good/Evil if you will... meaning they could equally be used to proof the existence of an omnipotent evil God.


Karen Paul wrote "though I must admit, the elbows I choose to rub usually have MAs or PhDs in philosophy, as the "common man" atheist is typically boorish and ignorant of the relevant issues."

What an incredibly arrogant man you are, Paul.


message 25: by Roldan (new)

Roldan Ancajas If you can, by all means, avoid being an atheist or theist - those are crap - agnosticism it the way to go!


message 26: by Roldan (new)

Roldan Ancajas If you can, by all means, avoid being an atheist or theist - those are crap - agnosticism it the way to go!


message 27: by Roldan (new)

Roldan Ancajas If you can, by all means, avoid being an atheist or theist - those are crap - agnosticism it the way to go!


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