Eric Allen's Reviews > Heretics of Dune

Heretics of Dune by Frank Herbert
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it was ok

** spoiler alert ** Heretics of Dune
Book 5 of the Dune Chronicles

A Dune Retrospective by Eric Allen

Heretics of Dune is a bit of an odd book in my experience. The first time I read God Emperor of Dune I was so put off the series by it that I refused to pick Heretics up for almost an entire decade. When finally I did pick it up, reading through the entire series again with the hope that age had given me new perspective on life to keep God Emperor from sucking so hard, it was probably my second favorite book in the series. It had characters I liked, things actually happened in it, and the story was pretty enjoyable with a huge OMFG DID THAT REALLY HAPPEN moment at the end. In comparison to God Emperor, Heretics is a friggen masterpiece. Of course, just about anything is a friggen masterpiece next to that abomination.

I have read this book several times since, and I remember enjoying it each time. However, this time, I made a bit of a mistake. I read Fragments by Dan Wells immediately before picking up Heretics, and that was so much better written, with so much more interesting characters, in a much more interesting setting, with a better story that is told better in every way than Heretics of Dune. And so, this time around, all I could think of was how mediocre it was, how it wasn't as well written as Fragments, how the characters weren't as interesting as the creations of Dan Wells, how the story was so distractingly vague and didn't seem to be going anywhere.

And after this experience, I have come to the conclusion that Heretics of Dune can either be a very good book, or a soul-crushingly mediocre one depending on what you read immediately before picking it up.

We begin after another 1500 year jump into the future. After the fall of the God Emperor due to his own stupidity, arrogance, and lack of any enjoyment factor for anyone reading the books in which he appears, humanity scattered to the nine corners of the universe, multiplying and finding new planets to call home. Why this could only happen AFTER the death of the God Emperor is anyone's guess, but whatever, I'm sure it made sense to Herbert as he was writing the book and who am I to tell Herbert what is stupid in his own universe?

After the Scattering people are beginning to return to Arrakis, called Rakis now, and the surrounding part of the universe, bringing with them the Honored Matres. These women are a perversion of the Bene Gesserit, ruling their people through the power of sex. No, I'm not kidding. In fact, the book goes into extensive and graphic detail on this point, and let me tell you... Herbert ain't no sex writer, that much is for sure.

The Bene Gesserit see them as a threat because ... and some girl is born on Rakis with the ability to ride the worms and this is important because ... and the Bene Gesserit have cloned Duncan Idaho yet again to do ... and they make an alliance with the Tlelaxu where they are clearly the underdogs because ... Do you see what I keep saying about Herbert leaving WAY too much of what would make his books make more sense vague and up to the reader's own imagination instead of giving us clear character motivations and explanations on the import of certain people and events that bring us into the story?

The Good? In a story that literally spans across thousands of years, Herbert bridges these books together with a common character, Duncan Idaho. It's not the same Duncan in every book, but he's got the same memories and personality so it works to hold the series together. Though he's more of a minor character in the first three books, he becomes a more central figure as the series progresses and all other bridges to the earlier volumes are washed away. He works pretty well in this role and is probably one of the more entertaining characters in the series for his penchant for saying the exact thing that will most piss people off in any given conversation.

The scope of the story, spanning across thousands of years shows Herbert's true visionary powers. That he was able to concieve of a story spanning so great a time, and account for the passage of time, like the names of planets changing, and show the long term effects of decisions made in the distant past by long dead characters, speaks to his prouesse as a storyteller.

At last, after three books of nothing but plots, within plots, within plots, wrapped in layers upon layers of intrigues, Herbert brings some much needed action back to the series. It's not that I don't like the political intrigues. Herbert is excellent at writing them. It's just that when that was ALL that there was to the story, it started to get a little stale. When characters do nothing but plot, and plot, and plot, and NEVER DO ANYTHING ELSE, it gets boring. People stop caring if anything is going to happen next, because they've seen that it isn't going to. When I first read this book, I loved the ending, because the last 25% of it is basically just non-stop action, which was something I was craving from this series since the first book ended, being a teenaged boy at the time and all.

The Bad? Although Herbert's sexism is not as pronounced in this book as it was in the previous one, it still comes out. Nearly every female character in this book is described by the size of her breasts, or by the attractiveness of her figure. The whole women perfecting the art of sex to enslave their followers thing is just a little too far over the top for my taste, and shows, once again, that Herbert thinks women are the scum of the universe. His mommy must never have held him as a child or something... There's thinking you're better than women because you happen to have been born with a dick, and then there's the complete and utter hatred that Herbert seems to have. He's in a class all of his own.

This book is not very well written. In fact, it's almost downright terribly written. Herbert used to be able to tell a coherant story, but as his career meandered on, he became less and less able to do so. The plot of this book, frankly makes no sense, it goes through several reversals, keeps the readers completely in the dark on the motivation and reasons behind generally everything going on, and skips over serveral key scenes without even referencing them or what went on during them. This book needed a lot more editorial influence than it got. Herbert really needed to sit down with a good and experienced editor and work through the plot for a few months before setting to work on the final drafts. These are things that could easily have been fixed, and I'm completely baffled that they weren't.

Characters do things that make no sense, because their motivations are never made clear to the reader. As such, their actions have no context. When we don't know what drives a character to do what they do, anything that they DO end up doing is confusing and pointless. Emphasis and importance are prescribed to certain people or places for no apparent reason because the author never saw the need to explain his own story to us or elaborate on all of the vagueness. Being vague is not bad in and of itself, you can build up mysteries in your stories to ratchet up the suspense and keep the readers interested. That's NOT the problem here. It's that NOTHING--N O T H I N G--is explained. Not who characters are, why they are important, why they do the things they do, why those things are important, what is going on, why any of that is important, why I should care about any of it, and so on. There's building up mysteries and plot twists, and then there's leaving the readers in the dark to the point that they begin to wonder if even YOU know what you're talking about. Characters start doing wildly irrational things and I can't even tell if it's in their character to do so or not, because they're not developed well enough as people for me to know anything about their personalities.

Nothing that happens in this book feels as though it was part of a flowing narrative where events move seamlessly and flawlessly along until it all comes crashing down at the end. Instead it feels like a whole lot of different scenes that have nothing to do with each other being tied together by the fact that they just happen to occur around the same characters. This book is a monumental failure to tell a story right from the foundation on up, and the worst thing about it is that it could have been fixed with just a little editorial influence. It didn't HAVE to be this bad. But Herbert had to come down with that whole George Lucas Syndrome thing and well, here we are, with a book that desperately needed an editor in the worst way, and never got one.

During almost every single scene in this book I was constantly asking one of the following questions. Why is this important? What does this have to do with anything? Why is this scene even in the book at all? What is going on, and how does it relate to anything else? These are questions that I should never find myself asking during a story. A narrative should be cohesive, with every single scene serving a purpose to the whole, flowing seamlessly from one event to the next and culminating in an epic climax. The entire story of this book is so disjointed and nonsensical that I was constantly trying to figure out how any given scene was supposed to relate to any of the others. And on top of that, several key scenes seem to have been cut near the end. On one page, Teg is plotting a bloody revolution to escape whatever planet he was on. And on the VERY NEXT PAGE, he's on Rakis waiting for a sandworm to arrive with some little girl whose importance STILL has not been touched upon by ANYONE at the very end of the book. I can make GUESSES at her importance to the plot, but Herbert holds her up as a golden child to be worshiped by all, but never tells us WHY. There was CLEARLY a deleted sequence here and the lack of it had me flipping back to see if my book was missing pages. Do you see what I mean when I say this book is disjointed and none of the scenes lead into any of the others? A good 30 pages seems to be completely missing from the published draft of the book.

The Ugly? Duncan Idaho: Teenaged Sex God... Need I say more? Okay, people, I've likely said it before, and I'll say it again, as many times as I need to for the point to sink in. Pedophilia of ANY sort is NOT COOL. Now, imagine if you will, that Duncan Idaho is not a fourteen year old boy, but a fourteen year old girl, and the sex temptress forcing herself on him is a man rather than a woman. Does this scene start to feel a little more uncomfortable to you? It should. It should have been just as uncomfortable to anyone as it is. Pedophila is pedophila, whether the victim is male or female. It is just as wrong either way, SO WHY IN THE HELL IS AN UNDERAGE BOY BEING RAPED BY AN OLDER WOMAN SO ACCEPTED IN FICTION IN OUR SOCIETY!?!?! It is just as bad when it happens to a boy as it is when it happens to a girl, and nothing that you can say will justify it. Pedophila is pedophila. It's the same damn thing, and I shouldn't have to explain why it is to anyone. This is a double standard that has both baffled and angered me for just about as long as I can remember. A young girl has an older man force himself on her and it's horrible and unthinkable, the same thing happens to a boy with an older woman and everyone is like, "good for him." NO!!! NOT GOOD FOR HIM!!! That's called pedophila, AND IT IS WRONG!!! Just because a woman is far less likely to sexually assault a teenaged boy than a man might be to assault a teenaged girl doesn't mean that it doesn't happen, and that it's not just as wrong when it does. Sexual abuse toward ANY child, male or female, is still sexual abuse, and guess what, having sex with a fourteen year old, no matter how many lifetimes of memory he might have, qualifies as sexual abuse.

This book has no protagonist. A Protagonist is the hero of the story, the one around whom the events of the story unfold. A Protagonist is a surrogate for the reader, a character that we can project ourselves onto and imagine having all those fantastical adventures as. They will be faced with some sort of conflict, and be tried and tested, coming to the very brink of ruin before finally learning and growing as a person and overcoming all opposition. Not every story is the same, I will grant you that, and not every story has to follow that exact pattern, but typically, there's at least a central figure in the story around whom events are woven. There's a main character that is vital to the plot, and without whom there is no story. Not so with Heretics of Dune. There are characters in this book. Some of them do things, though the vast majority of them only take up space, but the book isn't really ABOUT any of them. Without a strong central figure to identify with, we're left with the fragmented plot and the terrible writing to draw us into the book, and as they were both awful, what are we left with? Is it so much to ask that a fictional story I'm reading actually BE ABOUT SOMEONE? This is a concept as old as stories themselves, so why do so many authors these days have trouble identifying to the readers who their book is about and why we should care about them? Say what you will about Stephenie Meyer, but she at least knows who her books are about, and how to tell a cohesive story surrounding them. I mean... they SUCK, but at least they're put together better than this crap.

Anyway, despite liking this book in my younger years, I found it terribly written, convoluted, and far too vague for comfort. None of the narrative seems to flow along, and it feels something like a shattered stainglass window rather than a clear picture of a story. None of the character motivations are clear, and far too many plot points are left entirely to the reader's imagination. There is far too much pedophila going on for comfort here, and the fact that I never see anyone bring that point up about this book has me feeling a little nervous over where society is going. Despite bringing some much needed action back to the series, this book fails to entertain because it is written so poorly, and the plot reads like a map for a roadtrip planned out by a crack addict. Compared to God Emperor of Dune, it was a masterpiece. Compared to anything else, it's pretty much crap.

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Reading Progress

September 12, 2012 – Shelved
February 28, 2013 – Started Reading
March 15, 2013 – Finished Reading

Comments Showing 1-10 of 10 (10 new)

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message 1: by Lilian (new)

Lilian I wish I would have read your review before picking up this book. I totally agree with you. Sadly or luckily, I stopped reading somewhere near the middle of the book, I just could not force myself to continue. Maybe after few months (or few even worse books) I can go back to it, but I doubt it.


Regimeoftruth A few points:

God Emporer of Dune is great Scifi, and very poor literature. The whole point of the novel is that Leto II has created a boring, oppressive stagnancy which he intends mankind to flee from. The worst thing about the book is that Leto seems a remarkably immature thinker for a 3,500 year old emperor who carries the memories of all of his ancestors back to primitive humans.

Second, FH's Dune universe is set 10,191 years after the founding of an intergalactic empire; it is ALL about the weird. Complain all you want about the confusing prose, characters who act as expositional mouthpieces, and the tiring philosophical rants (like this one?) his characters are constantly yelling out (hey, I'm not writing a novel here), but don't try to take a moral highground as if FH thinks these things would be acceptable in our society. Dune is, from the beginning, a darkly cynical morality play that takes for granted that values are subjectively defined, post-hoc measures to make the struggle of existence more bearable and make us feel warm, fuzzy, and important as human beings. If the peace and harmony that our heroes carve out seems unsatisfactory to us, FH is doing us a service by making us ask ourselves why that is.

Also, 14 year old Duncan is trained as a mentat and in the Bene Gesserit way, and yet Murbella is still able to out-seduce him at first, before he gets his other memories back and becomes, effectively, more-than-adult. If I were a lit critic, I would say that this represents, if anything, the concept that a superhuman taking advantage of a human (or an ubersuperhuman taking advantage of a superhuman, or an adult superhuman taking advantage of a teenaged superhuman) is much like an adult taking advantage of an adolescent, and points toward a certain universality to the moral hazard therein, that transcends our current worldview (Episteme, if you will).

Lastly, don't complain that Herbert is sexist and then pan the book for its lack of a protagonist. Young Idaho is the central figure in the book, but inexperienced, and feminists who (begrudgingly) love FH (warts and all) should delight in the fact that some female characters get their day in the sun as a result of this. It's very much an ensemble performance, and the Bene Gesserit are finally getting some credit for how sensible (if terrifying) their worldview is.


message 3: by Eric (last edited Jun 23, 2013 05:20PM) (new) - rated it 2 stars

Eric Allen Regimeoftruth wrote: "Lastly, don't complain that Herbert is sexist and then pan the book for its lack of a protagonist. Young Idaho is the central figure in the book, but inexperienced, and feminists who (begrudgingly) love FH (warts and all) should delight in the fact that some female characters get their day in the sun as a result of this. It's very much an ensemble performance, and the Bene Gesserit are finally getting some credit for how sensible (if terrifying) their worldview is. "

I don't mean to be insulting, and if it comes across as such, I apologize in advance. But um... this paragraph makes no sense. You made good points before this one, but I don't get what you're trying to say here. You've got two completely different ideas mixed together that don't have anything to do with one another. Your statement that Duncan is the protagonist doesn't have anything to do with whether or not Herbert is sexist. It's like trying to prove it's hot outside by painting a wall. Could you be a little more clear in your meaning? Besides, having female characters in your book is not the same as having respect for women. Again, I point out how EVERY single woman in this book was described by sexual characteristics rather than, you know, WHAT THEY LOOK LIKE, even when viewed by other women. But, in the end, like I said, there are characters in this book, and some of them do things, but the book isn't ABOUT any of them. The book isn't ABOUT Duncan. The book isn't ABOUT Odrade. The book isn't ABOUT a hundred other people that appear in it. It isn't the story of any of these characters. It doesn't have a focus. It doesn't follow one person or group of people that have some sort of goal in mind. It isn't really ABOUT any of them. It is ABOUT a bunch of random things happening that really have nothing to tie them together. And none of this gives any proof one way or another as to Herbert's sexism. The way he talks about women. The way he describes them. The roles he puts them in. THESE things DO show it. This is sexism. nothing you can say changes that it is. The fact that you think there is a protagonist certainly has no bearing whatsoever on it. So, what, exactly, were you trying to say? You make no sense. Again, you're trying to tell me it's hot outside by painting a wall.

If you want to look deeper than I did, you go right ahead and enjoy yourself in doing so. Don't let me bring you down. I found the book badly written, extraordinarily vague and terribly put together. As a narrative on a technical level it's a train wreck that lacks key scenes, character motivations, and some sort of clear goal that anyone is working toward to tie random scenes that have nothing to do with one another together. It's a pretty poor foundation for the rest of the series to stand upon because it's far too confused and nonsensical.

And, um, you're not DEFENDING pedophilia, by saying that it takes place in another time and place, are you? Because there is NO defense for pedophilia, PERIOD. It doesn't matter if it's socially acceptable in a fictional world that does not actually exist. In reality--you know, that place outside with that big bright thing in the sky where everything sucks--it doesn't work that way. Fictional worlds are fictional. They do not exist. And any argument you make in defense of PEDO-FREAKING-PHILIA based on fiction is null and void because fictional worlds do not exist. Just sayin'.

Whether you liked the book or not is all a matter of opinion, of course, and you're entitled to yours just as I'm entitled to mine. Honestly though, my mind has been made up. There's not much you can possibly say to change it at this point. I didn't like the book, it was boring, scattered, and served little point or purpose, that isn't going to change no matter how many people come to its defense. And frankly, no offense intended to anyone, I don't really care enough about it to argue or discuss. I thought the book was a train wreck. That is what I honestly thought about it and no amount of people pointing things out to me is going to change that perception. No one is right or wrong. It's all a matter of opinion. I am paid to give my honest opinion, and that is what I did.


message 4: by [deleted user] (last edited Aug 28, 2019 03:08PM) (new)

Yes, I did feel compelled to make an account to say how mindbendingly inane your review is. The mere thought of possibly coming across more reviews like yours has decided me against having a real goodreads account.


Jonathan O'Brien I liked the book overall, but there were significant problems with it overall from a variety of perspectives--plotting, the hard-to-follow dialogue, the over-sexed women, and so on. Nice job capturing those problems in your post.


TheyreTakingTheHobbitsToIsengard Thank you for your cohesive criticism. I read it as a teen and couldn't go further after the sex scenes got more explicit. You'd think I'd be into that stuff at that age but it was so poorly written and grossed me out more than titilated, or whatever FH's purpose was. As you point out, maybe there was no purpose for the sex lines other than to prove it to be something to control other characters with. I think FH's attempt to suggest being a "Heretic" meant being motivated out of love was interesting but it fell far from the mark. It's one of the few books I started but never finished so I'm not sure if this point ever became clear, but from your review it seems that it did not.


Luiza Great review! Couldn't say it better!


Stelian Panzariuc Great review! i just finished this book and i was reading people's opinions on it. For me, God Emperor of Dune, is one of my favourites in the series. To answer your question, people needed a new purpose in life so they won't go extinct. That was Leto II Golden Path. Freedom to travel further in the galaxy and so humanity to expand and grow, otherwise they would still worship Messiahs and eventually that will be their doom. Leto II plan was to make people inventive and create new ways of travelling without the need of spice and so the Spacing Guild. Eventually Bene Gesserit, Ixians and Bene Tleilax worked together and created space ships that didn't need a Guild Navigator and so spice, and also they created a no-chamber were anyone with prescience could not detect them. So humanity joined forces against the Tyrant and there was peace among them and just one enemy: Leto II. And it took time until Ixians figured out how to create one of those ships. Also it didn't help that Leto II forbidden space travel for common folk only to make humanity angry and come up with the solutions.
Also for Heretics i agree with you on several issues. The lack of a protagonist, well we have Miles Teg, Duncan, Sheena, Lucilla and Odrade but not a main focus. The ending I agree was rushed, very rushed. Like Miles gets the ship, Lucilla, Duncan and Burzmali 'off screen' and they are on Rakis right away. The book was boring at times, it get some speed towards the end and the intro was a lot of exposition and new characters to introduce. I agree with you on keeping the reader in the dark. Like Frank Herbert did that in all of his Dune books but here i was wondering what is the main goal, and it feels like he came up with an explanation on the fly, nearly the last twenty pages. The main thing at the end was to escape the Tyrant's view and to make your own path? Why Sheena has to meet up with Duncan, why people of the Scattering want to conquer the Old Empire, do Bene Gesserit want to make an alliance with Tleilaxu or not, what happened on Rakis at the end, did they blast the planet making it uninhabitable, and so on. I like the expansion of lore, the action scenes, Miles Teg my favorite character, the fact that we are visiting Gammu, former Geidi Prime, the Harkonnen's planet and not just Dune, new sci-fi tech and so on.
Oh yeah the sex scenes. Duncan is not 14, because time passes, he is 16 but still underage. And Sheena, which is the same age as Duncan, witness a sex orgy.... those parts were.... umm questionable.
Nonetheless great review, this could have been a better book with a lot cut off and actual important stuff put in. Even in the older books the reader finds out what is the great scheme and he is not in the dark for almost the entire book.


Stelian Panzariuc Sorry for the long comment btw :))


Oscar Eric, great review, I enjoyed it more than this book lol. At first I was kind of intrigued about Sheeana as possibly being a new Messiah and figuring our a way to end the conflict between empires. But then I found myself getting bored and lost. A new chapter came and I thought things would start making more sense but they really didn't. I read the whole thing but kinda regretted it...


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