Emma Deplores Goodreads Censorship's Reviews > The Lions of Al-Rassan

...but somehow you liked Tigana. *shakes head sadly at inexplicability of universe*

I know, and to make matters worse I read Tigana after giving up on this one. Sometimes my tastes make no sense to me either.

I think it helped a lot, for me, that in Tigana the main characters are not the viewpoint characters. I'm thinking of Alessan, who only gets a couple pages of POV, and probably Brandin, who as I recall doesn't get any. Granted, Devin (was that his name?) is one of the blandest characters ever, but it's a lot more palatable to read about a super-special exile prince through the eyes of an unimportant follower. And Kay KNOWS Devin isn't important.

I also thought Tigana had a stronger plot, more prominent themes (both of which distract from goofy rhapsodizing about the characters) and better women (are there any women in Lions aside from Jehane? And everybody was into her.... that was a bit much). But, it's still Kay, so.... yeah.

But you liked Lions and not Tigana? How does that work?

are there any women in Lions aside from Jehane?

There's a few--Miranda, Zabira, Ines. They're all Kay women (beautiful, wanted by men, elegantly fierce), but I do think they come across fairly distinctly despite that. They don't rival Lisseut for my favorite female Kay character, but they did more for me than the ones in Tigana. (I'm afraid I'm on Tamara's side of the fence in book preferences, here.)

Hmm, the only one of those that I remember is Miranda (I think?) and all I remember her doing is tying up her husband so they could have kinky sex. But, point taken.

As for Lisseut, she wasn't bad, although I remember her playing mostly an observer role, like Devin in Tigana. Actually, I thought the women in A Song for Arbonne were pretty good, and can't understand how he then went on to write crap like Sailing to Sarantium, where everyone's a whore. Trying to shore up the male fanbase?

I can see why somebody might not like the women in Tigana, but I thought they worked pretty well. Dianora's storyline had real depth, and Alais wasn't about sexuality at all. Catriana.... well, she was the token woman in a band of guys and for awhile it looked like he was trying to build up the possibility of a relationship with every single one of them, but at least she didn't try to be seductive.

I've got a third or so of Tigana to go, actually, but at this point its a bit like pulling teeth...

I was quite young when I read Lions, so maybe that helped, but also it seems to me like a book thats distinctly not written quite in a modern epic-fantasy register - it's more of a legend, a Romance. It's stylized, it's purplish, it's all about atmosphere and emotion and tragic lost loves and whatever, and because of that its ok that it has absurd characterization and not enough plot to kill a gerbil with.

Tigana is like that too, but it also tries to be a contemporary doorstop fantasy, with politics, battles, quests, etc, etc, and faced with a plot that needs to make sense and characters that need to behave like humans, the characters and the story become loathsome and quasi fascistic.

I don't particularly mind the women at least...

Oh, and I quite liked Last Light of the Sun, actually, which seems to be rare.

I know a lot of people rave about Lions, but personally I always preferred Tigana and the Sarantium books over it. I'd put Under Heaven above it too.

Tamara wrote: "Oh, and I quite liked Last Light of the Sun, actually, which seems to be rare. "

I liked it myself, but I'd put it right around Lions on my list of Kay's books.

I think one reason Tigana worked much better for me is that it is grounded in a fairly traditional fantasy plot; it doesn't just wander about aimlessly as characters meet new people, have sex and think about how significant everything that's happening is. All that stuff happens, but there's a focus to it that's lacking in Lions.

As for Last Light... eh, the whole thing was about some Vikings trying to steal a sword from some minor character's farmhouse, as I recall. Books about writing talk about how you need to make sure the stakes are high enough to keep things interesting, but I'd never seen an actual published author mess that up before.

yeah, but, but, he had all those daddy issues and there was the stuff with the witches and the forests and stuff and other stuff. Yeah, I don't remember it that well, but I liked the atmosphere of it, which was very there but wasn't the kind of (one note, by now) sublime melancholy you get in Lions or Tigana. And I seem to recall it was...effectively tragic, maybe because it had low stakes and the tragedies were actually happening to specific, coherent people and not nations or concepts or the flow of time itself or whatever.

I can only conclude that our opinions on Kay's books are far too subjective to leave any hope of convincing each other of anything. :D

I did enjoy Last Light well enough while I was reading it. It was my first Kay book and I was endeared enough to the characters that I didn't want bad things to happen to them. But then no bad things ever materialized, and I looked back on it and went "Huh.... that was a whole lot of nothing, wasn't it?"

Heh. Always interesting to read pans, by people whose opinions I respect.

I've actually never yet read a GGK. And have a lifelong interest in Moorish Spain. So, maybe? Always the option to quit . . .

Peter wrote: "Heh. Always interesting to read pans, by people whose opinions I respect.

I've actually never yet read a GGK. And have a lifelong interest in Moorish Spain. So, maybe? Always the option to quit . . ."

Well, lots of people like it so you probably have a decent shot!