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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎. I see a consensus now to Keep this article. Thanks for continuing this discussion through its relisting. Liz Read! Talk! 04:09, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mor Chhainha Bhuinya

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Mor Chhainha Bhuinya (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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A non notable films that doesn't meet WP:NFILM. No existence of WP:SIGCOV, and likewise, the remake. Safari ScribeEdits! Talk! 22:59, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

*Delete, not seeing its notability. Sources are not RS. Ednabrenze (talk) 02:45, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Struck out my vote/comment based on the analysis by other editors who have more knowlege about the history of the film and the latest sources presented by S0091. Ednabrenze (talk) 16:40, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
hi,
Keep kindly understand that 'Mor Chhainha Bhuinya' was 1st film to be made in local chhattisgarhi language in over 30 yrs. so no one believed in this movie to have successful run, as such there was virtually any coverage. but after its release thanks to word of mouth publicity the film became a blockbuster leaving behind 'Mohabatein' and 'Mission Kashmir' in the state. Today this film has acquired a cult status as it gave birth to Chhollywood, an entirely new film industry in the state. Remember 'Andaz Apna Apna' despite huge star cast the film was declared massive flop but today it has gained a cult status. As such wiki page on 'Mor Chhainha Bhuinya' too deserves a page in wikipedia. Whatever sources that have been added are the only sources available online besides youtube (which is not accepted here). Most importanly this page is the most complete and well prepared page on this movie unlike previous attempts. As such 'Mor Chhainha Bhuinya' wikipedia page should be kept. If anyone can help improve it they are welcome. Bonadart (talk) 07:11, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

hi, Ednabrenze kindly understand that 'Mor Chhainha Bhuinya' was 1st film to be made in local chhattisgarhi language in over 30 yrs. so no one believed in this movie to have successful run, as such there was virtually any coverage. but after its release thanks to word of mouth publicity the film became a blockbuster leaving behind 'Mohabatein' and 'Mission Kashmir' in the state. Today this film has acquired a cult status as it gave birth to Chhollywood, an entirely new film industry in the state. Note that local media doesnt focus on Chhollywood, as such chhattisgarhi language films barely find mention. Remember 'Andaz Apna Apna', a wiki page on 'Mor Chhainha Bhuinya' too deserves a page in wikipedia. youtube has lot of info, but not accepted here. Most importantly this page is the most complete and well prepared page on this movie unlike previous attempts. If anyone can help improve it they are welcome. Bonadart (talk) 07:22, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, sorry but you cannot !vote twice. Kindly remove one of your two "Keep"s in bold, please -My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 09:34, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
hi actually i was giving a reply i will correct it Bonadart (talk) 09:59, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you.-My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 10:04, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the analysis but keeping an article here solely depends on the number of reliable sources that could be used to verify claims made in the article. I am not from that state and I would not know the historical background of the film but if there had been enough RS sources I would not have supported deletion. Ednabrenze (talk) 03:27, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
solely depends on the number of reliable sources, yes and no, it also depends on what they say and if one reliable source proves the film is important in the local culture that can be considered a sufficient reason to keep the page. At least, that is my understanding. -My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 08:37, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Only one source by Rediff that has some coverage and all other sources are poor and unreliable with director's recognition and announcement on the news of the sequel. I would also opt for Redirect but I am not sure where to redirect this page to. Fails WP:NFILM and WP:SIGCOV. RangersRus (talk) 16:36, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @RangersRus kindly understand that 'Mor Chhainha Bhuinya' was 1st film to be made in local chhattisgarhi language in over 30 yrs. so no one believed in this movie to have successful run, as such there was virtually any coverage. but after its release thanks to word of mouth publicity the film became a blockbuster beating 'Mohabatein' and 'Mission Kashmir' released same day in the state. Today this film has acquired a cult status as it single handly gave birth to Chhollywood, an entirely new film industry in the state (very few films can be credited for that anywhere in india), just this is strong reason to keep the page i think. Remember 'Andaz Apna Apna' despite huge star cast the film was declared massive flop but today it has gained a cult status. As such page on 'Mor Chhainha Bhuinya' too deserves a page in wikipedia. Whatever sources that have been added are the only sources available online besides youtube (not accepted here). Most importanly this page is the most complete and well prepared page on this movie unlike previous attempts. As such 'Mor Chhainha Bhuinya' wikipedia page should be kept. Bonadart (talk) 11:38, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    We need reliable secondary independent sources with significant coverage to consider the page's notability and so far I have found nothing significant. Its important that we follow the wikipedia guidelines for notability. RangersRus (talk) 00:09, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    there is lot of informattion about the film in youtube, but point is, if it is accpted here Bonadart (talk) 06:39, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep passes WP:NFIC as culturally significant as one of the major hit films in the chhattisgarhi language. imv Atlantic306 (talk) 20:50, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Since I am from Chhattisgarh I know how important this film is in reviving Chhattisgarhi film industry after 30 years. This film gave us a great director Satish Jain who has previously been a writer of big Hindi films and actor Anuj Sharma who is a Padmashri award winner and MLA and gave many great actors and this film has also been dubbed and remade in other languages. Before creating this article I originally tried to create it from a draft article but the draft kept getting rejected. This article is an important part of the history of Chhattisgarhi culture. I know there are not too many reliable sources on the internet but this film is remembered by the people of Chhattisgarh. Tushar (talk) 18:28, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    hi Tushar3011 (talk) thanks for acknowleding the importance of the film, if you can help improve the article with more info its better. Bonadart (talk) 20:01, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Keep !voters are arguing that the film is very important, but are there any sources we can use for this?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, asilvering (talk) 07:03, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

hi, asilvering (talk)
i will again say it, bcoz kindly understand that 'Mor Chhainha Bhuinya' was 1st film to be made in local chhattisgarhi language in over 30 yrs. This film single-handedly gave birth to a new film industry in the state, all actors made debut with this film. Note that no one believed in this movie to have successful run when it was being made, as such there was virtually any coverage. till this date the local media rarely follows the Chhollywood. This despitre fact that films made here are of better quality and value than bhojpuri films known for crass dialogues and provocative song/dance (as per me). Its history that after its release thanks to word of mouth publicity the film became a blockbuster leaving behind 'Mohabatein' and 'Mission Kashmir' in the state. As such with no media coverage Chhollywood doesnt get mention in media, despite that people love these films. Today this film has acquired a cult status. Remember 'Andaz Apna Apna' despite huge star cast the film was declared massive flop but today it has gained a cult status. As such wiki page on 'Mor Chhainha Bhuinya' too deserves a place in wikipedia. Whatever sources that have been added are the only sources available online besides youtube (which is not accepted here). Most importantly this page is the most complete and well prepared page on this movie unlike previous attempts. As such 'Mor Chhainha Bhuinya' wikipedia page should be kept. If anyone can help improve it they are welcome.
Bonadart (talk) 15:43, 15 September 2024 (UTC)Struck! Voted twice[reply]
You were told before by another user to not vote twice and yet you did it again and repeated the same wall of texts. Please remove the second vote. RangersRus (talk) 16:35, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The page has some sources....including a review by Komal Nahta. -My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 08:32, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is not a review by Komal Nahta in rediff source but some coverage with interview of the filmmaker. I already said about this in my vote and all other sources are poor and unreliable. RangersRus (talk) 11:38, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe not technically a "review", but it IS significant coverage by a notable film critic and it certainly can be used on the page. -My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 12:46, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(And I can't locate your mentioning of Komal Nahta in your !vote, for the record) -My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 12:49, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Isn't Rediff enough? RangersRus (talk) 12:55, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Depending on what you want to do of it. If you say you already mentioned "this" and I mention the name of the critic and you don't, no, it is not and it is therefore inaccurate to say you "already said about this". -My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 13:33, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Why it matters whether the name of the source Rediff or the critic who wrote an article in it is mentioned? Nothing inaccurate here. RangersRus (talk) 13:41, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, please! You say you have said something and you haven't. That's all. -My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 13:46, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
it is already on the page but not independent of the filmmakers self claimed coverage. RangersRus (talk) 12:55, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes it is. -My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 13:31, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Can be attributed to Komal Nahta:

The story behind the making and release of Mor Chhainha Bhuinya, which has celebrated a 100 day run in Chhattisgarh, is such dramatic fare that it could easily pass off as a good subject for a hit film! Satish Jain, its writer-producer-director, is not new to the Hindi film world.

The worst came when Govinda and director Manoj Agarwal found his Hadh Kar Di Aapne screenplay unsuitable and replaced him, keeping only his story. Dejected, Satish returned to his hometown, Raipur in Chhattisgarh, with the subject for a Chhattisgarhi film in his mind, a little money in his pocket and a lot of tension.Making a Chhattisgarhi film was not easy, especially because until then, only two films had been produced in that dialect.Besides, there was no finance available for the film.

The film was mainly shot in Bhilai, besides other places. Once the film's shooting was completed, Satish thought his woes were over.But it had only just begun. No distributor was ready to touch the film. Depressed, but not daunted, Satish and his brother decided to distribute the film themselves.Without any knowledge of distribution, this was only the beginning of a further harrowing experience for the Jain brothers.Exhibitors were anything but co-operative. Some of those scoffed at the idea of screening a Chhattisgarhi film. But Satish and his brother used all their persuasive powers and released the film in Raipur, Durg and Bilaspur on Diwali (October 27).The rest, as they say, is history...The film, which opened with 3 prints, has 12 prints engaged today, 100 days later. The film completed a hundred day run on February 3 in Raipur, Durg and Bilaspur. Of these, cinemas in Raipur and Bilaspur had five shows daily -- an unprecedented record! In Durg too, the film was screened five shows daily for several weeks before it was brought down to four shows.The blockbuster, which cost less than Rs 15 lakhs to make, is expected to do a business of over Rs 2 crores. It is now heading for a hundred day run at Bhilai, Rajnandgaon, Korba, Dhamtari, Ambikapur and Shakti.At Rajim, which has a population of 25,000 and only two cinemas, the film is being screened at both cinemas! State transport buses are doing such brisk business, carrying loads of people to and fro the cinemas screening the hit that new bus-stops have sprung up outside such cinemas at Rajim and other smaller centres.In fact, people not only come in busloads, but in bullock carts and tractors too! So cinemas halls now display sign boards indicating parking space for the tractors and carts!In Bhilai, a British lady, running an institute where she teaches students to make video and documentary films, saw the film 70 times! She was so impressed by the film's message that the education system is not suitable for preparing the youth for jobs, that she even telephoned Satish to congratulate him. The film is about a family returning to their village after facing tough times in the impersonal city where they had gone with hope and dreams.The film's success means that about 25 Chhattisgarhi projects are in various stages of planning and production. Of these, five are in advanced stages of production or post-production.(...)But the film's collections picked up from the third day, and the collections have been rising since.The film, which looked too insignificant to merit a mention in front of the other two Diwali releases -- Mohabbatein and Mission Kashmir -- soon left the Bollywood flicks far behind in Chhattisgarh.Satish now plans to add a song to the film. This song, which already appears on the film's audio cassette, has the names of all the railway stations in Chhattisgarh and may well lure audiences all over again!The song is scheduled to be shot this month and will be included in all the prints from March. Satish is also contemplating dubbing the film in Bhojpuri.

I hate to make those long quotes. But do we have a choice? -My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 13:45, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And I mention it can be used, although it is on the page, because asilvering's question is "are there any sources we can use for this"? -My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 13:51, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But you omitted the claims/interview of the filmmaker from the same source that it uses for coverage and like I said earlier, it makes the article not indepedent of the claims made by the filmmaker. In the same source, the filmmaker says

Recalls Satish, "We sold our family land at Rana Pratappur, near Bastar. My brother-in-law also mortgaged his land, while my brother borrowed money from his friends. But we still ran short of money. So my father literally begged for funds, knocking door-to-door in our village. My entire family supported me in my time of need. "If the film has a running time of only one hour 50 minutes, it is because we decided to do away with the shooting of 20 scenes and a song as we had no money left."..."The film had a very slow start. In fact, for the first two days, I felt it wouldn't work. The worst fears overtook me. I would not have had the courage to face my family after what they had done for me. I thought I may have to run away..." Satish recalls.

RangersRus (talk) 14:01, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is the only source like i said couple of times before that we can consider some coverage but it is not independent of the filmmaker himself and per notability we need 2 or more secondary independent reliable source with indepth coverage and that can not be found on the page. RangersRus (talk) 14:09, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't OMIT it!!!! I left it out of the quotation on purpose, to cite only what can be attributed to the critic. Your quoting it here is almost bizarre....We needed a reliable source showing the cultural significance of the film. Here you are. I'm leaving it at that. -My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 14:31, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
hi Mushy Yank (talk) thanks for this detailed response. I have tried to reason that its unfortunate that local media doesnt focus much on Chhollywood unlike telugu, tamil, bhojpuri, bangla, kannada, or malyalam movies. But some want to ignore the cultural significance and importance of the film that gave birth to an entirely new film industry. Hope this clarifies their doubts, once n for all. Bonadart (talk) 15:33, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. I found this source ([1] - not sure about reliability) that says that this film revived the industry after 30 years and that the Indian state of Chhattisgarh was created 3 days after the release of this film. That in of itself sounds very significant. The Hindi name is मोर छैंहा भुइंया. DareshMohan (talk) 17:53, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@DareshMohan: that source is unreliable personal BLOG of a user and with Gmail contact and says that it does not make any warranties about the completeness, reliability and accuracy of information. I saw this source before when trying to find a secondary independent reliable source but because of its unreliability, ignored it. RangersRus (talk) 18:01, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The source comes from a blog that was only created this year. A WHOIS search shows it is about eight months old. That with other factors show it is absolutely unreliable. --CNMall41 (talk) 18:09, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - Only source which could possibly be used to support notability would be this from Rediff.com. Although that is up for debate above. Assuming it is acceptable, that only leaves one reliable source that has significant coverage. I do understand the desire to want to keep this, but the sources simply do not support notability. --CNMall41 (talk) 18:24, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    hi the local media doesnt follow or profile the Chhollywood as such media coverage isnt there except youtube (not accepted here) its neither the film or industry's fault. the significance is huge for giving birth to san industry. Raja Harishchandra and Alam Ara 2 important films, practically none review and virtually no coverage most mentions are books yet they have pages here, so why not this film Bonadart (talk) 19:21, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That is the fourth time you have stated such. It does not help your case as it is actually admitting that there is no significant coverage. The sources is what shows notability. Without them, the topic is not notable. --CNMall41 (talk) 01:09, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
so does it change facts, i say NO it doesnt, if Raja Harishchandra and Alam Ara casn have pages why not this film Bonadart (talk) 06:59, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree the TOI article is reliable as it is NOT part of the run of the mill NEWSORGINDIA they have put out lately. However, unless I am missing something, it is a simply mention of the film which only verifies it existed. Verification is not notability. The book is a little better but again, very little information other than verifying it was made and what it grossed. I think these get it closer but still not over the mark. Maybe a redirect to the cinema page with a mention would be appropriate. --CNMall41 (talk) 02:59, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Respectfully @CNMall41, you and I have a different definition of a "mention". This book I also found is what I consider to be a mention that only privides verification (a Chhattisgarhi language film titled Mor Chhainha Bhuinya was released in 2000). Of course you can argue TOI is not WP:SIGCOV because we don't have a firm definition of what constitutes SIGCOV, other than it's more than a sentence, but it is certainly more than a mention (non-trivial). It is eight sentences and 139 words (not counting the quote). The article also states The movie's stunning success propelled the rise of Chhattisgarhi film industry. (not included in Daresh's snip below). According Chhattisgarhi language, there are 16.25 million speakers of the language and this is the film that launched an entire industry representing those millions of people. That's not mere existence. S0091 (talk) 16:12, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Passing mention? TOI says

Then in 2000, Jain returned to Raipur after parting ways with Govinda and decided to make a Chhattisgarhi film Mor Chhaihan Bhuinya (My shadow and earth). Soon enough, he realized he had to produce, direct and finance the movie himself because nobody thought a Chhattisgarhi movie would work. "We had to sell off our family land near Bastar. My brother-in-law mortgaged his land. My brother Tiku sang a few songs because we couldn't afford a playback singer," he remembers. No one else was willing, so the Jains distributed the movie themselves. Mor Chhaihan Bhuinya was released on October 27, 2000. Three days later, Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee announced the creation of Chhattisgarh state. The crowds expressed their happiness by thronging the theatres. Produced at just Rs 20 lakh, the film grossed an eye-popping Rs 2.5 crore. It ran for 27 weeks in Raipur's Babulal theatre. In the two cinema halls of Razim and Nawapara qasbah, it ran 24x7.

DareshMohan (talk) 03:49, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think we do. I would agree that the TOI is reliable, especially since it is bylined. The book is also good coverage but it is more about the filmmaker. Why I said passing mention is because it is more about the history of cinema and includes that as an example. It doesn't say anything about the film other than it was created. Genre? Review? I think agreeing to disagree is appropriate but still do not see this as enough for notability. Based on it being discussed in association with the history of cimena, it may be appropriate to include a snippet there as I sated above. --CNMall41 (talk) 17:59, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, we disagree. There is no guideline that requires the genre or reviews. While reviews are one of the criteria for WP:NFILM so is #2 (historical significance) which includes Publication of at least two non-trivial articles, at least five years after the film's initial release. We'll agree another time though as we have several times before. S0091 (talk) 19:08, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And fwiw, I highly doubt my opinion will be factored in anyway, given the other votes above. --CNMall41 (talk) 18:22, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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