Sci-fi and Heroic Fantasy discussion

This is the place for our chosen December, 2013, Contemporary fantasy Novel discussion:


The Golem and the Jinni by Helene Wecker

I know it has been getting lots of praise and love and I have an electronic copy I have not looked at yet. Will aim to join in but it might be a little after xmas before I get it started.

I'm about 2/3 through The Golem and the Jinni now, and I'm really enjoying it.

It started strong by introducing the premise & situation of its two titular characters. Then it wanders off on some background exposition for a couple of other characters who won't become relevant until much later. It's not an action story, but it's really strong and quite thoughtful writing. Definitely something different, new and interesting. I'm definitely hooked on the story.

Now that I've finished it, I'm really amazed how much I enjoyed "The Golem and the Jinni". The last third of the book was intensely interesting, and for such a soft story it had a really exciting conclusion.

The marvelous characters it take such pains to create are unique, intriguing, and starkly different in personality as well as situation. The Jinni was used to a life of unlimited freedom to wander the desert as he wished, and now finds himself trapped in human form and human society. The Golem, in contrast, finds herself without a master, a situation so inimical to its nature it makes her uncomfortable with her unexpected and seemingly undesired freedom. Once they finally meet, they find their situation as supernatural beings trapped in 1900 New York City draws them together while their personalities, the Jinni longing for greater freedom and the Golem seeking to serve, push them apart.

I'm sorry that I didn't jump into the thread earlier, but Christmas travelling was busy. I had time to read through the book, though. And I really enjoyed reading it. It feels like Little, Big or The Night Circus. Action oriented readers will have their problems with the book, because there isn't much happening in two thirds of the novel.


I loved the setting, as it is my first narration happening in New York and it interleaves two of my favourite folklores.
Enough exposition to learn about the fate of immigrants and communities in lower Manhattan at that time: Wecker tells us a vibrant story about arriving in a new world and changing to fit to new needs.
It isn't only a fairy tale but also a serious philosophical discussion of free will: The Jinni was used to absolutely freedom and leisure before he was bonded to human form. On the other hand, the (female!) Golem was build to a specification but lost her master on the journey over the sea - her very nature dictates to be bound to another will.

I'll have to read the classical Gustav Meyrink's Der Golem some time next year!

Andreas wrote: "It feels like ... The Night Circus."

Don't say that too loudly, or Ben won't read it. :(

Andreas wrote: "it interleaves two of my favourite folklores."

An unusual choice of favorites.

If these legends were combined in a story set in the present day, the mixing of Jewish and Arab folklore would inevitably have to acknowledge the Israeli/Palestinian conflicts. By setting the story in 1900, Wecker avoids that complication. (It's fraught whenever two mythoi combine - sort of like when Marvel features Thor vs. Hercules. :)

I also liked that the Jinni wasn't used as a wishing well, which is the usual way they are employed in stories.

Andreas wrote: "I'm sorry that I didn't jump into the thread earlier, but Christmas travelling was busy. ..."

Most of the group seems off for the holidays.

I think, the 1900 New York setting in general was great. I don't think that Wecker chose it to avoid the current conflicts but to show us the immigrant situation.
She didn't follow several stereotypes - wishing Jinnis was one one that you already mentioned. In addition, her golem is female and intelligent, curious which is the complete opposite to the usual brute, dumb chunk of clay (or stone, bronze, whatever).
Concerning Jinns, I'd like to recommend the wikipedia article.

Golem folklore is usually set in Eastern European Jewish communities (e.g. Chelm or Prague)- golems in Jinnis' homelands wouldn't be a good choice anyways.

Andreas wrote: "I think, the 1900 New York setting in general was great. I don't think that Wecker chose it to avoid the current conflicts but to show us the immigrant situation...."

Yeah, I get that. New York City in 1900 was the immigration gateway to the US, which was still expanding rapidly. And it had dozens of ethnic ghettos, Italian, Irish, Scandinavian, and Jewish and Syrian. (According to my historical maps, Syria was then a large, vague region (including the Levant and Arabian Peninsula east to Persia, that was part of the Ottoman Empire at the time, though the Jinni was blissfully unaware of such "modern" things - and could probably not care less about where humans drew lines on a map.) To mix diverse cultures, it's a good choice for setting.

The ethnic neighborhoods of NYC were supposedly quite close knit, such that everybody knew everyone and look out for each other (at least with respect to the police and other areas of the city.) As employed in the novel, where it seems quite easy to just get to the right neighborhood and ask around for someone.

Andreas wrote: "She didn't follow several stereotypes - ... her golem is female and intelligent, curious which is the complete opposite to the usual brute, dumb chunk of clay (or stone, bronze, whatever).

Golem folklore is usually set in Eastern European Jewish communities (e.g. Chelm or Prague)..."

Unlike the Jinni, which appears sporadically in English-language fantasy, we don't see many Golems. I have the vague impression they are supposed to have one of the names of God engraved on their fore head, though I probably picked that up from some cheap pulp fantasy novel (you know how those are :) (Oh, yeah, the dwarves in the Dragon Age videogame had some golems, too. Nasty critters :) Certainly both Schaalman & Rabbi Meyer agree "she" is an exquisite and unique example of the Golemsmith's art.




Andreas (review) wrote: "The two main protagonists aren't named most of the time......"

I noticed that, too. In the author's narration, they are always "the Golem" and "the Jinni". Only in dialogue and character thoughts are they referred to is Chava & Ahmed. I suppose that is Wecker's way of constantly reminding us the names are only recently added affectations, and despite their masquerades, neither is really human.

Andreas wrote: "It isn't only a fairy tale but also a serious philosophical discussion of free will:..."

Indeed. I thought one of the best moments in the novel, quite underplayed, was when (view spoiler)[The Golem discovered Schaalman's notes in Michael's desk:

She read it over—and then again, and again. Stunned, trembling, she turned the page, and read what was written on the reverse.

Rotfeld’s desires in a wife: Obedience. Curiosity. Intelligence. Virtuous and modest behavior.
She will make him an admirable wife, if she doesn’t destroy him first.

And in her memory Joseph Schall rose before her, clutching a box of dinner rolls and smiling his secretive smile. I never doubted you would make an admirable wife.

Is that all we are, a list of adjectives scrawled on our Maker's notepad. (hide spoiler)]

A chapter later, we see that the Golem and the Jinni aren't the only one with free will issues, and eight conversation between those two characters (view spoiler)[ shortly after the Jinni has met Schaalman/Schall and swapped repressed memories:

"... ibn Malik was not acting on your orders. And Schaalman has a free will of his own.”
“I’m not so certain of that last one,” the Jinni said. “I saw his lives, and they all followed the same pattern. As though he could not break free of his own disposition.”
The Golem’s mouth twisted. “You believe he couldn’t choose not to do evil?”
“We all have our natures,” said the Jinni quietly.

(hide spoiler)]

I loved this book. It would be an exceptional read from an established author but is even more amazing as a debut novel. I love immigrant stories and Helene picked an amazing setting with New York at the turn of the century. It is well deserving of all the praise it is receiving.

The Night Circus comparison was pretty apt -- both books had rich settings that the authors did little with. To be fair, the characters in this book were deeper and more complex than in the Night Circus and had more agency, but I can understand why some people draw the comparison.

About 25% through, and so far I'm enjoying it. I really love the Jinni. The Golem character is weird to me, but geez, I'd love to have her around to cook and clean. (I know, awful me:P) Anyway, so far it's made me think of The Taker by Alma Katsu, although maybe it's actually The Reckoning, the second book in the series that I'm thinking of, as the guy who makes the Golem and the guy who makes Adair feel similar. I have to say that for me, the comparison to Little, Big doesn't quite work:( For me, Wecker's prose is very smooth, and easy to read. Crowley's is poetic and dense, leaving me breathless and needing to put the book down just to savor it. So the lengths of the work are similar, but for me, the prose in Little, Big represents a mastery of language and storytelling that is truly rare. I'll check back in when I finish, hopefully, in not too too long, lol.

Leah wrote: "The Night Circus comparison was pretty apt -- both books had rich settings that the authors did little with. ..."

For me, "The Night Circus" created a magical/fantastical setting, and relied on it to produce charm and sense of wonder at all the enchanted exhibits the competitors created within the Circus. Either you like that atmosphere, our you hate the book, because plot & character are pretty thin. Whereas in "The Golem and the Jinni", the setting seems mundane to me, a convenient place the plot could credibly unfold, but the characters and story carry the load.


One of the more significant elements of the NYC setting for "The Golem and the Jinni" was the arch in Washington Square:



This is the meeting place for the two main characters.

According to Wikipedia, this monument was constructed in 1892, eight years before the main story of the novel takes place, to commemorate the centennial of George Washington's inauguration as the US's first President. A smaller version of the Arc de Triomphe in Paris, it bears an inscription attributed to George Washington's address to the Constitutional Convention (1787).

"Let us raise a standard to which the wise and the honest can repair.
The event is in the hand of God."

I hear a slight echo of the book's theme of free will, or the limits thereof, in that quotation. Or is it just me?

I finished:) I haven't read Night Circus, so I can't compare this book with that one. This one is solid. I enjoyed reading it. I really liked the Jinni. I guess I said that before! That sustained and remained throughout the book. I didn't dislike Chava. She was an interesting character, but I just couldn't get over my: golems are kind of weird creatures. I recently read Burial Rites, another strong debut. This kind of made me think of that book. They both put a *different* shine on their main female characters which I appreciate.

G33z3r wrote: "Let us raise a standard to which the wise and the honest can repair.
The event is in the hand of God."

I hear a slight echo of the book's theme of free will, or the limits thereof, in that quotation. Or is it just me?


I know I can be dense:) And I think the book was definitely all about free will vs. restraining ourselves for the sake of community. I guess what I don't get is… how this quote is about free will? Is that what you meant? I guess for me, "the event is in the hand of God" gives it the: it's out of our control thing. And if it's out of our control, how much meaning does free will have?

Heidi wrote: "I think the book was definitely all about free will vs. restraining ourselves for the sake of community. I guess what I don't get is… how this quote is about free will? ..."

I guess I see that quote as a suggestion for a middle ground between the Golem's total submission and the Jinni's unbridled free spirit. The quote has two parts, suggested one can take an action to influence the result ("raise a standard"), even though the outcome is not assured. I thought it provided a counterpoint to observation about ibn Malik and his multiple incarnations through the years that he "couldn't help but to evil". Of course, there's no guarantee that Washington was any more right than the Golem or the Jinni. :)

It's always possible that I'm just reading too much into it, too (though I feel there must be a reason Wecker pointed out the quote.)

I very much liked the way the Golem and the Jinni influenced each other towards that middle ground. The Jinni comes to realize in some instances (his affairs with Fadwa & Sophia), he's been what the Golem would call "reckless"; and the Jinni convinces the Golem that having a master might not be all she hoped for, if she be commanded to harm those she'd come to care for.

Thanks for replying. No, I don't think you're reading too much into it. You make an excellent point. I didn't read the "let us raise a standard" that way, but now that you explain that, it makes a lot of sense. I asked because, that arch was so important in the book, but I just couldn't figure out that quote myself:) It also makes sense with the second line, what you're saying, that it's a claim or hope to find middle ground. Cool that you posted the photo! Anyway, I've been thinking about this, because it seems that this issue is still very much one of our times, i.e. finding the balance between individual freedom and community. Maybe it always is, probably so.

Wow, deep, lol.

I really did like the Jinni, and I really did like the epilogue. I was a bit confused about the flask in the end. I thought only Jinni's could be put in a flask. Did I miss something in the book? i.e. that a human soul could also be put in a flask, or container. Or was that just Schaalman's/Malik because he'd technically become some other creature as well?

Interesting stuff, for sure!

Heidi wrote: "Cool that you posted the photo!..."

In one of those strange coincidences, the very day I finished reading "The Golem and the Jinni", I was watching a Netflix rental with a "making of..." extra at the end, and it was about filming a scene in Washington Square, featuring the arch. I'd never seen it in person (haven't been to New York since the 1964 World's Fair, other than changing planes at Kennedy.) So I took that as a sign I should borrow a picture from Wikipedia. ( Either that or I should start sculpting arches in my mashed potatoes.)


Heidi wrote: "I was a bit confused about the flask in the end. I thought only Jinni's could be put in a flask. Did I miss something in the book? i.e. that a human soul could also be put in a flask, or container. Or was that just Schaalman's/Malik because he'd technically become some other creature as well?..."

I get the impression any creature could be placed in the flask. Wecker has several non-traditional approaches to magic and supernatural creatures. Certainly imprisoning a Genie in a lamp or bottle is the predominant Western view of the Jinn. (never really thought much about how a Genie would spend his time outside the lamp when I watched "Aladdin" . . . or the old TV show "I Dream of Jeannie", for that matter. Genies come in bottles. Huge cosmic powers, itty-bitty living space :)

Golems are usually vaguely humanoid but look like clay or stone monsters, without true faces, much less skin texture, intelligence or conversational ability. Even Schaalman thinks Chava is a masterpiece of the art.

Wecker's magic can be used by anyone who learns the words, so it's the domain of scholars. (You think people would pass around a few of the more useful charms, such as healing; but evidently scholars of magic are inherently secretive and possessive. :)

For those who are interested in asking Helen Wecker, author of "The Golem and the Jinni," some questions (or just reading her answers to others), this Tuesday, January 14, she will be answering questions on Goodreads. (Depending on your e-mail preferences, you may already have received this notice directly from Goodreads.):

Helene will be answering questions from Goodreads members in a special discussion group in celebration of her bestselling book, The Golem and the Jinni.

Helene will be answering questions throughout the day on Tuesday, January 14th, but you can ask your question right now.

Click here for the Ask Helen Wecker topic in Goodread's Author Chat 2014 group. (Join the group to post a question.)

G33z3r wrote: "Heidi wrote: "Cool that you posted the photo!..."

In one of those strange coincidences, the very day I finished reading "The Golem and the Jinni", I was watching a Netflix rental with a "making of..."

Yeah, I guess that must have been it, any creature could be put in a flask:)

And yes, why wouldn't they be more generous with those useful charms, lol!

I haven't had much time to jump into the discussion since reading the book. I enjoyed this read. I liked the mix of historical fiction with the fantasy, was interesting. I don't know about anyone else but I find it difficult to describe this book to people without it sounding weird to them. As I was reading I was telling my husband about it and he just thought it was strange. Maybe it's the mixing of golem and jinni or that it is set in NYC in the time of immigrants.
I thought the characters were well developed.

Vera wrote: "I don't know about anyone else but I find it difficult to describe this book to people without it sounding weird to them. ..."

It doesn't really lend itself to a concise description, does it? But that's probably one of the attractions, that it isn't easily described as a clone of something else. "It's like ‘Far and Away’ meets ‘Aladdin’!" :)


Vera wrote: "Maybe it's the mixing of golem and jinni..."

It's an unusual-seeming pairing, probably because it hasn't been done before. But then I started thinking, when did werewolves and vampires start mixing? I think that's a relatively recent combo, but it's become almost standard now (Underworld, True Blood, Twilight, Vampire Diaries,...) So next year, I predict golems and jin will be all the rage in urban fantasy: "Lamp Called", "For a Fistful of Clay",... :)

G33z3r wrote: "I have the vague impression they are supposed to have one of the names of God engraved on their fore head, though I probably picked that up from some cheap pulp fantasy novel (you know how those are :) "

G33z3r, you might be thinking of Avram Davidson's 1955 (?) SF short story "The Golem." I read it in a short story collection years ago, but I just found it online at http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2012.... It's a little gem of a story (excluding some remarks about Japanese yard workers that are very insensitive by today's standards). I love the Jewish couple and their practicality.