podcast
The Assignment with Audie Cornish
Every Thursday on The Assignment, host Audie Cornish explores the animating forces of this extraordinary American political moment. It’s not about the horse race, it’s about the larger cultural ideas driving the conversation: the role of online influencers on the electorate, the intersection of pop culture and politics, and discussions with primary voices and thinkers who are shaping the political conversation.
How Campaigns Use (And Misuse) Music
The Assignment with Audie Cornish
Aug 29, 2024
Kamala Harris has “Freedom.” Donald Trump has “God Bless the USA” (and a lot of cease-and-desist letters). What makes for a good campaign song? And why do we respond so viscerally to the ones that work? Audie talks with DJ Cassidy, who DJ'd the DNC Roll Call. And Dana Gorzelany-Mostak, who studies the use of music in political campaigns.
Episode Transcript
Audie Cornish
00:00:01
A good political speech like a good song, can make or break momentum.
Michelle Obama
00:00:05
If we see a mountain in front of us, we don't expect there to be an escalator waiting to take us to the top.
Audie Cornish
00:00:12
And it used to be that a good speech could live on in the public imagination, almost trapped in amber. Not anymore. For example, you know what happened to that zinger laden speech by former First Lady Michelle Obama?
Michelle Obama
00:00:25
I want to know. Who's going to tell him? Who's going to tell him that the job he's currently seeking might just be one of those black jobs?
Audie Cornish
00:00:34
Well, it's living on as a sonic building block for TikTok.
Michelle Obama
00:00:38
Who's going to tell him that the job he's currently seeking might just be one of those black jobs?
Audie Cornish
00:00:43
In this election, fueled by social media, AI generated images and bedroom DJ software. Any speech, rally or gaffe can be chopped, remixed and replayed to a whole new audience of voters.
Michelle
00:00:58
Black jobs. Those Black jobs. One of those Black jobs. Who's gonna tell him that the job might be one of those Black jobs?
Audie Cornish
00:01:02
And the 2024 election has been a wild ride music wise. Donald Trump actually plays a version of the National Anthem sung by January 6th convicts at his rallies. The DNC had a live DJ spinning a bespoke set for the delegate roll call. The campaigns are using music on a whole other level. So what makes for a good campaign song? One that won't earn them a cease and desist and an internet spat with a pop icon. And why do we respond so viscerally to the ones that work? I'm Audie Cornish, and this is The Assignment. "Yooo, did you hear that convention roll call!?" Said no one ever. At least not until this year.
DJ Cassidy
00:01:53
So I got a call from the producers of the convention who said, how would you like to be the first musical maestro of a convention roll call.
Audie Cornish
00:02:06
'This is DJ Cassidy. If you didn't know him before -- and I didn't -- you are by now at least somewhat familiar with his work. He's best known for his pandemic era internet series Pass the Mic, which evolved into a series of splashy music specials on BET. He is also a house DJ, but don't bother trying to book him. He did Beyonce's wedding to Jay-Z and JLo's 50th birthday party, among others. He's also a Democrat and I caught up with him on the last day of the DNC in Chicago.
DJ Cassidy
00:02:37
I have watched conventions and I took part in 2012. I was the first DJ house band of a convention. I was in essence a one man house band for the entire four day convention, which was a very different experience than this 75 minute, meticulously curated performance.
Audie Cornish
00:02:58
Like very different.
DJ Cassidy
00:03:00
At first I wasn't quite sure what they meant. So I had to ask specifically for clarification, and I said, what do the speakers during the roll call typically speak over? And the answer was nothing. And I said, as in silence? And they said, yes, they just speak.
Audie Cornish
00:03:24
For example, this is the roll call from the 2024 Republican National Convention in Milwaukee. And to be clear, this is not an unusual way to do it.
Vicki Drummond, RNC Secretary
00:03:35
Delegates and alternates. Let us commence with the roll with a call of the role of the states. Iowa 40 delegates.
DJ Cassidy
00:03:47
And I said, okay, we're about to change the game. Ladies and gentlemen, my name is DJ Cassidy, and I'd like to welcome you all to the Democratic National Convention roll call.
Audie Cornish
00:04:02
So it was lit. People were really into it. I have, I have been to I won't even say how many conventions because I don't want to scare the Youngs, but the roll call is the kind of it's fun and cheesy is usually the vibe. And but but, old fashioned, like by definition. Right? Even at this point, it's fairly performative. No one ever thinks like, oh, who's going to win the roll call? But it's often an afterthought. And then this year it clearly was not. So everyone loves making a playlist, right? Like sort of the streaming has democratized that process. But I can't imagine sitting down and trying to figure out 75 minutes of music that also, you know, won't get you a cease and desist letter. Right? Like there's complications to politics. You're laughing. Just give me a sense of what are the complications in doing music for political moments.
DJ Cassidy
00:05:10
Well, from a very logistical standpoint, I left the legalities of the clearances and the approvals to the convention. Although in my creative process I was cognizant as much as I could be of who the artists are. And what they're known to represent.
Audie Cornish
00:05:34
In what way? Like in your mind? Did you have, um...
DJ Cassidy
00:05:38
'There are some artists who, and very few who are publicly known to be Republicans. I would have never chosen a Kid Rock song. Nor would I have wanted to. I wanted, needless to say, the songs to have a special meaning to the States, and I couldn't be the only one to solidify that meaning. This really was a collaborative process. Of course, there is songs that seem obvious Empire State of Mind, and I use that as an example because I was born and raised in New York City, a very long time fan of Jay-Z and Alicia Keys, and I've known them both for many years. And then there were other songs that were not as obvious, and those made it even more interesting for me and for the viewers. And so..
Audie Cornish
00:06:31
Wait, wait you gotta give an example now.
DJ Cassidy
00:06:33
'So, so one that comes to mind is that's interesting to me at least, is the state of Florida. Florida is the home of many great recording artists and many hip-hop artists Pitbull, Flo Rida, DJ Khaled. At some point in this collaborative process, I learned from the state that Tom Petty I won't back down was an anthem of theirs. And remember that songs were not only selected in context of just the state, they were selected in context of the whole program.
DNC Tape
00:07:11
Florida. How do you cast your vote?
DJ Cassidy
00:07:14
I really wanted, from a musical standpoint, these songs to have hills and valleys. You know, when I DJ a party, we don't just come on at a ten and stay at a ten like this the whole entire time. The emotions go up and down and up and down. So Florida was an interesting example of how the tides kind of turned from where my mind was initially.
Audie Cornish
00:07:38
I would say one of the high points was Lil' Jon coming out? Turn Down For What. Obviously because he was there physically. Was that Georgia's idea? Was that your idea, like.
DJ Cassidy
00:07:51
Again, it was a real collaborative idea. The producers of the convention from the first conversation said to me, we would love to have a guest or two. And from the very beginning, we were all talking about Georgia. Georgia was just screaming out us! First of all, Georgia falls at a perfect place in the alphabet. It's not the beginning, it's not the end. It's, you know, somewhere in the middle was a perfect place. And instinctually we all felt with so many, you know, legendary artists coming out of Georgia and all roads at the end of the day led to Jon. And that moment was 100 times more electrifying than I had even anticipated, and I anticipated it to be electrifying.
DNC Tape
00:08:39
Georgia, how do you cast your vote?
DJ Cassidy
00:08:41
But oh my God, when he stepped out, that arena blew up.
Lil' Jon
00:08:51
Yeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh! Ladies and gentlemen, we are here tonight to officially nominate Kamala Harris for president. Fire up that loud, another round of shots. DNC: turn down for what!
Audie Cornish
00:09:06
'I think at the end of the day, we're kind of asking a lot for music. I mean, it is it's unreal thinking about -- I don't want to say this in a partisan way, but like, for example, Beyoncé clearing Freedom for the campaign. And every time that song plays, the crowd loses its mind. You know, like the energy, it completely sweeps through the whole arena. And I guess what can you leave us with to help us understand the feeling we get with a song. It almost feels like it's coming in from another planet. You know what I mean? When that energy enters the room of politics.
DJ Cassidy
00:09:49
'I've been asked this question so many times over the past four years, but not related to politics. I've been asked this question in relation to my series Pass the Mic. And the answer really holds true with both. The answer always comes back to one thing. And that's emotion and memories. Music strikes an emotional chord and brings you to a place where you first heard that song, where you lived a special moment to that song. The songs that we incorporated into the soundtrack of the roll call spanned seven decades, ranging from Sam Cooke from the 1960s to Chappell Roan, whose song came out in the past year. So 60s, 70s 80s 90s 2000, 10s, 20s - that's seven decades of memories, of special moments. So when I dropped the Chicago Bulls theme song.
DJ Cassidy
00:10:58
Chicago. Are you ready?
DJ Cassidy
00:11:03
In Chicago at the United Center, you're envisioning Michael Jordan walking out to win whatever number of championship he won and wearing whatever number of Jordans you stand on line still to buy to this day. So it brings you back to all that. I'm giving one example of what a song does. And I think that the songs that we put together for the roll call, whether from the 60s or the present, all channel an emotional response in most cases based on memories that you subconsciously associate with the music.
Audie Cornish
00:11:45
What I love about this answer is for politicians and campaigns. The idea of having a tool of imprinting is amazing, right? Of saying like, again, taking the feeling someone has from something else and injecting your story into it. Because as a campaign you're trying to bring people into your story. Whatever it is. You're trying to get people to live in your vision of the world. It is a powerful tool, right? But to have a mass imprinting moment. One example I have is, Don't Stop Thinking About Tomorrow and the Clintons. Like, for me as a kid watching that I associate that song in that moment with them because I saw it, you know, on TV and you're right. Like, music has a way of, like, literally stamping in our brains a memory, which, honestly, is what a campaign needs and wants.
DJ Cassidy
00:12:44
A hundred percent I couldn't agree with you more. And you said something that made me think of something else. There were three songs out of 57 with the phrase "don't stop" in the title. Don't Stop thinking about tomorrow. Don't Stop Till You Get Enough. And Don't Stop Believing. Now, I'd like to tell you that was on purpose, that there was connections between titles that was not on purpose, but it was also not a coincidence. The phrase don't stop means something. Keep going, keep pushing. When we fight, we win. That's the slogan, right? So a lot of these songs were in the running for me personally because of the titles. In many senses, these songs had nothing in common. Would I, as a DJ, ever play these 57 songs together in a 57 song set? No, but what the songs did have in common were feelings. Feelings of hope, feelings of unity, feelings of celebration. And so really, my goal, if I had to summarize the whole thing, was just to find music that represented that. That even if you didn't know the song titles, even if you had never heard the songs, if an alien came from outer space and watched this, would they feel the right way? That was my number one goal.
Audie Cornish
00:14:07
'D.J. Cassidy is a Grammy nominated DJ and record producer. We spoke last week in Chicago. Coming up, what makes for a winning political song? Back in a minute. It's The Assignment. I'm Audie Cornish. The alchemy that goes into that imprinting we talked about is no easy thing to achieve, because it's a mix of message -- the candidates -- meaning -- the song -- and the artist hopefully not trying to sue. And when I think back to, say, Republican George H.W. Bush, 1988, he used This Land Is Your Land, Woody Guthrie. I mean, that tracks. That same year, Democrat Mike Dukakis, he used Neil Diamond's America. In 1992, Ross Perot used Crazy by Willie Nelson.
'Dana Gorzelany-Mostak
00:15:04
Was it Crazy by Willie Nelson. Or was a Crazy by Patsy Cline.
Audie Cornish
00:15:10
Oh! Good correction.
'Dana Gorzelany-Mostak
00:15:12
I think it was Patsy Cline.
Audie Cornish
00:15:13
'This is Dana Gorzelany-Mostak. She's a music historian who created a database where she and her colleagues try to capture every bit of music in and around presidential campaigns. I'm actually reading these from her website, Tracks on the Trail that's trax with an X. Bob Dole used a song called Dole Man.
'Dana Gorzelany-Mostak
00:15:31
So that was actually the song Soul Man, thinking maybe we give the octogenarian a little bit more cool cachet, but he just kind of had this awkward strut. I don't think it really was the best choice.
Audie Cornish
00:15:44
She says that grafting pop songs whole cloth on to a campaign is a relatively new thing, considering that the first campaign songs designed to appeal to voters of the day appeared in the 1840s.
'Dana Gorzelany-Mostak
00:15:56
Supporters would write these poems. They would set them to the popular tunes of the day, like Yankee Doodle, for example, or Auld Lang Syne. And they would have this candidate specific set of lyrics that was circulated in these little songbooks called song songsters and people that were there to attend a rally or parade, would sing along. And since they already knew the tune was actually quite easy, to participate.
Audie Cornish
00:16:21
We're also talking minstrelsy, right? We're talking, like, leading up to the Civil War.
'Dana Gorzelany-Mostak
00:16:25
Yes. And a good number of campaign songs from this early period were, they took the tunes from minstrelsy.
Audie Cornish
00:16:33
Like I said, designed to appeal to the voters of the day. The whole pop song as campaign song thing really takes off in the 1900s.
'Dana Gorzelany-Mostak
00:16:42
There's certainly some examples of this in the 20th century that are notable. I mean, FDR used Happy Days Are Here Again in 1932, and George McGovern used Bridge Over Troubled Water in 1972. But, you know, kind of the first candidate. We really speak about using music really effectively in this kind of way, using an unaltered pop song is Bill Clinton in 1992. And you might.
Audie Cornish
00:17:08
Is that because you know how old I am?
'Dana Gorzelany-Mostak
00:17:10
I think I'm older!
Audie Cornish
00:17:11
I feel attacked. I feel attacked!
Bill Clinton, 1992 DNC
00:17:13
God bless you. And God bless America.
Audie Cornish
00:17:26
It actually, no lie, ruined Fleetwood Mac for me for a very long time. It was...I had arrived at it not as music of my youth, but as music of like, you know, my early kind of adulthood and politics.
'Dana Gorzelany-Mostak
00:17:43
So many times when I talk to people about my area of research, they tell a story about that song, and I think it really speaks to its lasting power. It's something singable, something memorable about the profile of that tune. But I think more importantly, it really perfectly meshed with the messaging of his campaign. Right? I mean, Clinton is the first baby boomer candidate in this, you know, in 1992. You know, this song is from 1977, right? So it's already kind of represents this throwback and this nostalgia factor in that, you know, Clinton is creating his soundtrack, and drawing on the music of his own youth. But, you know, he also was a candidate that very much was implicated in popular culture. You might remember he appeared on The Arsenio Hall Show and he played his saxophone.
Arsenio Hall Show Clip
00:18:33
Arsenio Hall!
Audie Cornish
00:18:46
Him playing the saxophone on Arsenio Hall was a super signal, I think, at the time, even to show his connection to the Black community. It wasn't subtle. Between the glasses, Arsenio and the saxophone, but we hadn't really seen a candidate do anything like that perform, so to speak.
'Dana Gorzelany-Mostak
00:19:07
He's also, you know, making a bigger statement in emphasizing his humanness. And I think it was it was really quite effective.
Audie Cornish
00:19:17
How seriously do campaigns start to take music?
'Dana Gorzelany-Mostak
00:19:21
You know, in the past few election cycles, we now have access to social media. I think candidates and their lives are on display in a way that they weren't in the previous century. And I think, you know, our our lives are kind of saturated with images and speeches. And, you know, we're hearing on a 24 hour news cycle that's coming across our social media. And I think that maybe creates a demand for more access and more novelty. And I think engaging with music becomes a way of responding to the public's sort of insatiable desire to constantly be informed and to constantly know.
Audie Cornish
00:20:04
There's a third party here between the voter and the politician, which is the person who made the music. How does that come into play over time? Right? Because you start to have artists speak out when there's a politician using their music, and they don't feel like they support that politician.
'Dana Gorzelany-Mostak
00:20:21
You know, over the past three election cycles. We hear a lot about this because Donald Trump has frequently used the music of artists who protested its usage. This is certainly happened before, but usually when it does, if the artist protests, the candidate will stop using the music because, you know, nobody wants to attract negative publicity.
Audie Cornish
00:20:44
Even though they could fight it. Right? I mean, they could go to court.
'Dana Gorzelany-Mostak
00:20:47
Sure. In some instances, yes, you absolutely could. But candidates don't want that kind of publicity. You know, Donald Trump is very much the exception in that even though artists have protested, you might remember most recently Celine Dion, Trump has continued to use the music of a lot of those artists. But I think that in and of itself is part of the strategy in that he is asserting ownership over the music. He's not willing or not feeling as if he has to abide by the same rules everybody else does. To be sort of is setting up this antagonistic relationship between himself and the artists. And then this goes across social media. I can't say how many articles I read each time some artist protest Trump's use of their music, but but that in itself creates a certain kind of noise that I think kind of becomes the soundtrack. So it's not so much about the lyrics of the music that Trump uses or the sounds of the music as much as it is the disruptive effect of this back and forth that takes place across social media and in news outlets, and so forth.
Audie Cornish
00:21:51
Also for some of these artists, especially conservative artists in the music industry, it is a way also of distinguishing themselves. Right? Because they, they feel political isolation sometimes.
'Dana Gorzelany-Mostak
00:22:03
Yeah. I think you're right about that. I mean, I think about, you know, Kid Rock's recent performance at the RNC, you know, he performed his song American Badass, although he changed it up a bit. And he changed some of the words to fight, fight! Trump, Trump!
Kid Rock
00:22:18
Say fight, fight! Say fight, fight! Say fight, fight! Say Trump, Trump!
'Dana Gorzelany-Mostak
00:22:29
So he made this anthem and this sort of celebration of unrestrained masculinity into this, this anthem for Trump, if you will. And I think there was something very memorable about that moment, because most of the RNC was very much dominated by classic rock. So, you know, music that was popular in the in the 70s, in the 80s. And, you know, you heard the Eagles, Kenny Loggins, Grand Funk Railroad, Steely Dan, the Doobie Brothers, right? So I think the messaging of Trump's campaign is very much about looking at the past as a much brighter period of our in our nation's history.
Audie Cornish
00:23:10
The Harris campaign is really young. But the vice president already has this kind of recognizable campaign sound. She had a song ready to go, cleared from the artist Beyoncé, which is freedom, which she got permission to use. What do you hear in that selection?
'Dana Gorzelany-Mostak
00:23:29
'The sound of the song overall is a little bit different than what generally you hear candidates use as a walk on song, but I do think it nicely aligns with a lot of the different narratives her campaign is trying to put forward. So this song is from her 2016 album Lemonade. And this album, it's it's autobiographical for Beyoncé. Right. So I think she's very much telling her own story here. She's also engaging with the political moment with Black Lives Matter, with the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina as well. It really draws on a lot of different musical genres to tell kind of this broader story about the history of the Black experience in the U.S. more broadly, and not just in terms of the lyrics, but in terms of this sampling as well. This song has a sample from a mid-century preacher and also a prisoner.
Beyoncé
00:24:34
I'm a wade, I'm a wade through the water...
'Dana Gorzelany-Mostak
00:24:36
And she's kind of wrapping all these together in this song. It's past. Its present. It's personal. It's political. It's not just powerful for Kamala Harris in that it's speaking about this, this concept of freedom, which you see the Democrats trying to wrest away the definition of that from the Republicans. But I think it's also the figure of Beyoncé that has the potential to signify here as well, in that typically when we speak about politicians, we want to see continuity between how they express their policy positions, their values and so forth. But I think with artists, the ability to reinvent oneself is very much an asset. And we've seen that with Beyoncé throughout her career with each of her albums. It's kind of this constant reinvention, if you will. And if you think about Kamala Harris, you know, her career is kind of been one of reinvention as well. She was a prosecutor. She was a D.A., she was a senator. She's a vice president. So I think taking this story of a woman who has managed so many successful reinventions that that's a narrative that Harris wants to tap into, not just through the song, but also to the figure of Beyoncé as well.
Audie Cornish
00:25:50
'People don't know this, I mean she in her background, through her husband and through being in California she has a lot of connections with the entertainment community, specifically music and music executives who have held a lot of fundraisers for her. And she's a well-known jazz fan.
'Dana Gorzelany-Mostak
00:26:05
That's right. There's a wonderful video of her on the small business day. Going into the record store and purchasing, I think it was, it was Duke Ellington, Roy Ayres and.
Audie Cornish
00:26:18
And she also asked for Charles Mingus.
'Dana Gorzelany-Mostak
00:26:21
And Charles Mingus, that's right.
Audie Cornish
00:26:21
And she likes Miles. Yeah.
'Dana Gorzelany-Mostak
00:26:22
Yeah. And there's someone who even created this, this website where you could type the name of an album in, and it shows her holding that album. And I think that's another really great example.
Audie Cornish
00:26:33
Oh, yeah. Like a little meme generator like you could, you could have, you could have the vice president holding your favorite album cover.
'Dana Gorzelany-Mostak
00:26:39
Exactly. So you could remake the candidate how you want her to be as well.
Audie Cornish
00:26:44
I really love this idea that we're actually in this tipping point moment where we speak back to the candidates through music.
'Dana Gorzelany-Mostak
00:26:54
Yeah. I mean. If you think about it. We're kind of in this age where we live our lives, going from screen to screen, whether it's our work time or leisure time for entertainment. And we're constantly being inundated with sounds, right. And they're trying to sell us something. But now we also have the tools to speak back. And people aren't afraid to do so. You know, when I think. For a lot of people, politics is something they consider to be something alienating, something that they want to be distanced from something that's uncomfortable. But on the other hand, music is something that people use to feel a sense of belonging. It allows people to be in touch with themselves and their emotions. So I think when these two things collide, it creates an opportunity to tell different stories, to explore different identities. So it's not surprising that people latch on to these moments to feel as if they're putting some of themselves into the political conversation in a way that feels comfortable.
Audie Cornish
00:28:10
'Dana Gorzelany-Mostak is a musicologist and Associate Professor of Music at Georgia College and State University. She's also the author of the book Tracks on the Trail: Popular Music, Race, and the U.S. Presidency. That's it for this episode of The Assignment, a production of CNN audio. This show was produced by Graelyn Brashear. Our senior producer is Matt Martinez. Dan Dzula is our technical director, and Steve Lickteig is executive producer of CNN Audio. We had support from David Rind at the DNC. Also Haley Thomas, Alex Manasseri, Robert Mathers, John Dianora, Leni Steinhardt, Jamus Andrest, Nichole Pesaru, and Lisa Namerow. Special thanks, as always to Katie Hinman and special thanks to you for listening. I'm Audie Cornish.