podcast
The Assignment with Audie Cornish
Every Thursday on The Assignment, host Audie Cornish explores the animating forces of this extraordinary American political moment. It’s not about the horse race, it’s about the larger cultural ideas driving the conversation: the role of online influencers on the electorate, the intersection of pop culture and politics, and discussions with primary voices and thinkers who are shaping the political conversation.
Trump, Elon, and Silicon Valley’s Political Sway
The Assignment with Audie Cornish
Aug 15, 2024
Audie talks with journalist Kara Swisher about the rise of Silicon Valley’s big donors and how Trump won some of them over. Plus, how Kamala Harris’ California roots have worked to her advantage with tech donors.
Kara is the author of “Burn Book: A Tech Love Story.”
Episode Transcript
Audie Cornish
00:00:00
'By now, it's clear the Harris-Walz campaign has been inescapable on social media, to the point where Donald Trump, the O-G internet ubiquitous candidate, has turned to some throwback methods to earn the media spotlight, like holding a televised news conference and calling on the owner of his once favorite social media network.
Elon Musk
00:00:21
So. Honor to ... Donald great to, to speak.
Audie Cornish
00:00:28
'This week Elon Musk interviewed Trump live on his platform “X” -- the site formerly known as Twitter. Trump had a rocky relationship with the old management which would block or label his tweets as misinformation, then banned him altogether after the January 6th riot at the capitol. So he ignored it in favor of his own conservative social media platform: Truth Social. Back then, it wasn't in Trump's financial interest to come back.
Donald Trump
00:00:32
Kamala wouldn't have this conversation. She can't because he's not smart. You know, she's not a smart person, by the way. She can't have this conversation.
Audie Cornish
00:00:40
Needless to say, things have changed.
Donald Trump
00:00:43
But the beauty is that you you know, we can have a conversation and, yeah, you have to get it out without. Because....
Elon Musk
00:00:50
This is a really big point. You can actually have a conversation with you.
Donald Trump
00:00:54
Yeah. It's nice, isn't it?
Elon Musk
00:00:55
And you can't have a conversation with Biden. Oh come on. Like it's like, not, it's not possible. Yes. It's like talking to an NPC. Now it's just impossible.
Audie Cornish
00:01:02
'NPC stands for non-playable character. It's gamer speak for the scripted extras in video game scenes. On the pro-Trump internet, it's become a way of mocking liberals as mindless sheep loyal to groupthink and identity politics.
Donald Trump
00:01:18
And you know, we have a phrase Make America Great Again. It's pretty simple, but it really says that we want to make America great again, and we can do it.
Audie Cornish
00:01:25
Anyway. Musk is not the only wealthy tech titan who's gone over to Trump in the last few years.
Ben Horowitz and Marc Andreessen
00:01:31
There's been a brutal assault on a nascent industry that I've just I've never experience before. It's been impossible to make progress on this with the White House. We're not experts on all things that the government does, but, on startups and technology, we are certainly among the best experts in the world. We think Donald Trump is actually the right choice. I'm sorry mom.
Audie Cornish
00:01:51
These Trump friendly podcasters, Ben and Mark, are better known as Ben Horowitz and Mark Andreessen. They run one of the biggest venture capital firms in the world.
David Sacks
00:02:02
My fellow Americans, we need strength and savviness in the White House Situation Room.
Audie Cornish
00:02:09
This is David Sacks. He got a plum spot on stage at the Republican National Convention to rail against the Biden administration's foreign policy. His daytime job? Billionaire venture capitalist, and yes, also podcaster.
All In Podcast
00:02:22
What?
David Sacks
00:02:23
Yeah, we're we're hosting an event for the once and future president, we're hosting a, a fundraiser for him.
Audie Cornish
00:02:30
That one's called All In. So how did Trump win over some of the loudest voices in Silicon Valley? And how is Kamala Harris using her California roots to counterpunch with tech industry donors? Kara Swisher is our guest for The Assignment. I'm Audie Cornish. Now, Kara Swisher is a journalist and techno optimist. She also knows a lot of these people personally, including Musk. Fair warning she's not impressed.
Kara Swisher
00:03:10
Because there's so many horse's ass is running these companies. Elon, for example, he's he thinks he's Ready Player One and he's the center figure of everything.
Audie Cornish
00:03:20
'Personal feelings aside, she gave me good context for what we're seeing. I wanted to talk about anti-woke tech bros clashing with liberal Hollywood politics. But Kara pointed me to the rise of Silicon Valley executives in the political donor class, and how they bring a new set of interests, the mega companies that worry about antitrust laws, the cryptocurrency types who want to avoid government oversight, the AI gold rushers who want to get ahead of it, and the polarizing effect of tough Biden-Harris era regulators. People like Lina Khan of the Federal Trade Commission and Gary Gensler at the Securities and Exchange Commission.
Kara Swisher
00:03:59
I never thought technology was liberal, I never did. As you know, I thought they had very few values. That was always my issue. They had none. What it is, is a tolerant culture, and it's leave me alone, you know, and I used to call them libertarian lite. This new crop is very different than the old conservatives in Silicon Valley. They were vaguely liberal, which is essentially not very, right? And so when when Elon shifted, I think the problem is we've got the problem is Elon like he's he's had a he's had a life change in some fashion.
Audie Cornish
00:04:31
'But he is an outsized voice. And I think when he seized control of what I call ex-Twitter, he he did it with ideology at the forefront of how he talked about it. Yeah. And Kara, you know, it's interesting it actually reminds me a lot of how there is the movement led by Barry Weiss in the media with the Free Press, which takes all of the sentiment, the writers to editors who feel like our newsrooms are too woke. Whatever, blah blah blah. They found a home and they found a new flagbearer. And it feels like the tech industry also has had that same conversation.
Kara Swisher
00:05:14
But in thinking they're louder than they're powerful is all, it just happens to be. The one who's at the top of it is the world's richest man, or one of them. Right. And he owns something that the media loved, which was Twitter. Right? And so that's that's the confluence of this money, his obvious toxicity that has increased over time. It's just it's all combined to make it seem bigger than it is. If you look at that red team, you know, Elon and all those people sign that one thing. They're all kinda losers.
Audie Cornish
00:05:41
Yeh you have to give people more detail than that. So there was a formal letter?
Kara Swisher
00:05:45
'Yes, a form, a letter that a bunch of people who were in that group and that gang, the Red gang. Right? The Red team, whatever you want to call them, mid-level VCs. You know, a couple of marginally successful people who are more lucky than to me than good. And they all sign a letter talking about whatever, it's their woke mind virus, or we're for Trump or this and that, and it's people who have no expertise, by the way, FYI to me, I call them the lucky crew. They were lucky to be at Facebook at the right time, but nobody ...like if you look at the blue team, those are real, really accomplished people. Reed Hastings, Reid Hoffman, you know, like if I had to put them toe to toe. The group of the blue team are a lot of stars, and the red team is Elon and a bunch of his stans.
Audie Cornish
00:06:32
So that was my next question is fundamentally, are people drawn to Trump or are people disappointed in certain policies from Democrats? What do you think are some of the things that do draw people to be more Trump curious at this point? How did techno libertarianism start to become more Trump curious?
Kara Swisher
00:06:55
Well, you've got to separate them. Some of them are just crypto people. There's a lot of crypto people who don't like Gary Gensler, right? And they don't like some of the normal things for the Biden administration to say, let's make sure this doesn't end in tears for the consumer, which is their job.
Audie Cornish
00:07:11
Right? So these are regulators like Gensler. You mention also Lina Khan, who who's made, a name for herself in the antitrust space.
Kara Swisher
00:07:19
'Yes. And John Kanter, who's the head of the antitrust division of the Justice Department, who just had this victory with Google around search. For the first time, this is the first action that's been taken. It's going to go on for a while. This is not a Democrat or Republican thing. These shifting sands, it depends on where you are. If you're in the crypto space that a lot of the crypto bros think that the Biden administration is hostile to them because they want no rules whatsoever. And that's not happening. Right? So that's the problem they have. And so they moved over there. I think very few of them are doing it out of political values. I think they're doing it out of financial self-interest.
Audie Cornish
00:07:57
You're saying even when it comes to personal ideology, you have doubts?
Kara Swisher
00:08:01
I think they're empty inside these people. They really don't have any values to speak of except get out of my way. I think some of them like the attention. I think Elon, his desperate need of attention. And so he this is what he's doing, is making a spectacle of himself 24 hours a day, in a very sad decline of someone who was quite brilliant. One of the things that I think people get wrong about Elon is that he has a lot of fans, but he has a lot of detractors, right? He had a success in one area that people really liked, which was rockets and cars. Right? Essentially. And then he's moved over into media, which he's not quite as good at. Right? But he was rich, so he gets to buy it and therefore he gets to pontificate on whatever he wants to pontificate on. And I think that one of the things that it's doing is it's actually bad for his businesses. It's his real, his real businesses. Twitter is not a real business. It's dying.
Audie Cornish
00:08:51
But people also look at the fact that they have power over information networks, right? I mean, there wouldn't be Congressional hearings if people didn't think they had a kind of power in the culture or influence. Right? They literally are the platforms for our discourse in so many ways, whether it's the fact that people will be listening and watching this podcast on YouTube or Apple or Spotify, they are in control of those spaces, as much as you and I might feel in control, it's their platform and that there's something about that, that that is cultural power that is intimidating.
Kara Swisher
00:09:29
You have to really focus on the distribution and the money. And one of the things that these tech people are doing, the ones that are especially affiliated with Trump, is that they're exerting it through money, which is an age old. This is not a new, fresh thing of rich people trying to influence politics. And so that's what these guys are doing because they happen to be ascendant financially right now, not forever, but for right now, I would question how much actual impact Twitter has on anything, except for a small body of political reporters in Washington. Right? In the case of, you know, Elon and his bros, I think he realized, as do many of these people, how cheap these politicians are to buy.
Audie Cornish
00:10:13
After the break, candidates at the top of the Republican and Democratic tickets have close ties to Silicon Valley. And we're not talking about Trump. We'll be back in a minute. So let's talk a little about the ticket, the Democratic ticket and the Republican ticket. J.D. Vance has this background for a few years anyway. Months, years. As a venture capitalist.
Kara Swisher
00:10:40
He was a player in no way of any consequence. He wasa failed tech person.
Audie Cornish
00:10:44
Yeah, but it's on the resume. One of the many things they're talking about on the resume. And then there is this connection to Peter Thiel. Yes. Who was one of the original founders of PayPal, which those guys became so influential. People call them the PayPal Mafia.
Kara Swisher
00:10:57
Mafia. I know they call themselves that.
Audie Cornish
00:10:59
They call themselves that. But the point is, Thiel was very influential and ended up backing the lawsuit that Hulk Hogan did against Gawker Media, which ended up kind of shutting down that aughts blogging empire. I say that because when both Hulk Hogan and JD Vance were on stage at the Republican National Convention, lots of people wondered, does this mean that Peter Thiel would be kind of pulled on to the field, so to speak, to support Trump? And what, if anything, that meant? Can you talk about this triangle of players? Right? Thiel, Vance and Trump.
Kara Swisher
00:11:38
The only one who's the most important is Peter Thiel. He doesn't think democracy works. That's his basic stance if you read his books. So he's always been this sort of suspect about any government, just tearing it down as one of his favorite things. He talks about tearing down the system. And so very much like Steve Bannon I think is much more influential than you realize, or a Roy Cohn or someone like that sort of behind the scenes. He's very important. JD Vance met him when he was a student at Yale, I think, law school, and he has been helping JD Vance ever since, you know, rise up and through none of JD Vance's has talent, as far as I can tell. He was in nothing in tech investing. I mean, it was very hard to fail during those days and he managed to fail. That's you know what I mean? Like, you know, you could put a, you know, a collie in there and they'd make as much money as he did, like he had no resonance. And then he quickly moved to politics, where he also had no resonance. Right? But with through money and influence of Peter, he got to become a senator.
Audie Cornish
00:12:37
And we should say for background, when JD Vance kind of moved off from his Hillbilly Elegy, sort of liberal elite appeal and moved towards Trumpism and ran for that Senate seat, he was struggling. He was really struggling until both teal began to support him financially. And then Trump began to support him, culturally.
Kara Swisher
00:13:01
Via Thiel, introduced them. Right?
Audie Cornish
00:13:03
But it means that Trump agreed with Thiel or respected him, or wanted access to his money. Like there's something about that relationship that was meaningful. Does it mean anything that Vance is on the ticket to Silicon Valley because he has.
Kara Swisher
00:13:19
I think they should be worried about him. First of all he's a lightweight.
Audie Cornish
00:13:21
'It's something that I think people need to understand because it's actually a wee bit confusing with Vance's position as a so-called economic populist that he actually supports antitrust efforts, etc..
Kara Swisher
00:13:32
Yes. I think his his nature is antitrust. I think his nature and his who knows what's real with this guy. He keeps changing, right? Like he was so hostile to Trump many years ago. It was it was remarkable how hostile he was to Trump, like it was noticeable in, you know, and a lot of people were hostile to Trump. I think he's quite the tech is too big tech is too powerful. Tech is ruining our lives. Tech has ruined Kentucky. You know, whatever.
Audie Cornish
00:14:00
And he's praised Lina Khan, who we talked about this regulator going after Facebook, Google, etc..
Kara Swisher
00:14:06
'Yeah, yeah, yeah, except for Elon. He doesn't want to go after him. You know, one of the most anti-union companies in Silicon Valley is Tesla. But, you know, he's I think who knows with this guy, he's sort of like a he's like a suit people fill up. So, but my instinct is he's quite anti-tax.
Audie Cornish
00:14:23
Does this mean anything for Trump or are the acolytes to Trump in Silicon Valley... They're satisfied as long as they have Donald Trump.
Kara Swisher
00:14:33
'Trump is somewhat hostile to tech, too. You don't know where he was. He was anti-TikTok then he was anti... He was going to cut Section 230. You know I don't think he has any policy that he understands in any way. So I mean whatever people tell him he does. He just likes Elon because Elon likes him. Right? That's what he said. The Biden administration has been somewhat tougher on tech, but none of them have been, Audie. Obama people bent over backwards for tech. You know, the Biden people have been marginally more hostile, but not really.
Audie Cornish
00:15:06
Now, with Kamala Harris on the ticket, this obviously has, right, lit a fire under Democrats of all kinds. Lots of Californians excited because they're going to have potentially, a president which they have not had since Ronald Reagan. Talk about her relationship to tech in particular in terms of this person who is we're being told, you know, fought transnational criminals and banks and fought big business. What is her relationship actually to Silicon?
Kara Swisher
00:15:41
I think she's quite cozy with tech. She's very corporate friendly, I would say. I would not say she's like a barn burner to take down tech. I think she had some issues. Privacy. I think she tried to, you know, and some of the all of them sort of fall on the shoals of Section 230.
Audie Cornish
00:15:58
Right. And this is the portion of, of federal law that allows tech companies to proceed with their work without being sued.
Kara Swisher
00:16:05
Sued. I don't know, she likes that as a lawyer. Right? But lots of people on all sides, all sides don't know what to do about Section 230, actually. I think she's been she has a lot of friends in tech. I see her with tech people all the time. She couldn't, you couldn't operate in California as a senator without having a good relationship with the tech industry, right? And I think she's on familiar terms with them. I think she knows them well. I think she's, friends with some of them. Lorraine Powell Jobs comes to mind. They're very good friends. I think she's moved in their circles for years. I don't think they're threatened by her. She tends to take the middle ground on most things. You know, like with TikTok, she's like, it shouldn't be banned, but it should be owned by someone else. That's like the most middle ground thing you can say, right? I suspect on everything. She'll go right down the middle with a lot of stuff. She's also not embraced them that much either, right? She's again, she's sort of I wouldn't say she's a there's a lot of politicians who are creatures of tech. She's not that either, but she's certainly not their enemy, that's for sure.
Audie Cornish
00:17:08
What are you going to be listening for in the next couple of weeks? I mean, I don't know if it'll come up, but certainly I feel like AI and the talk about AI kind of hovers over everything, certainly with election and elections and concerns. I mean, as we speak, the Trump campaign is wrestling with what they may have been a hack. Right?
Kara Swisher
00:17:31
'I think she's done a beautiful job handling the social media stuff. I think, you know, everyone was sort of complaining about TikTok being anti Biden. Well, it's pro Harris and it's anti-Trump, that's for sure. She's very adept at communicating in the new terms. I think I'm been very impressed by her social media. I have to say I'm like, this is well done. And she's really speaking to the moment in that regard. I think Donald Trump is still caught in 2016 where he screams on a Twitter like platform. It just doesn't have the resonance that it did before. Things change in tech so quickly and how people communicate. She's very adept at that. When I'm watching for his actual policy from any of them. Right. I think she's very cognizant in the need for safety. I'd like to know what she thinks that means specifically. I think she's fully capable of understanding it. Like, unlike Donald Trump, who is not, in the tech area, I wonder where she's going to go on AI and and the safety and and regulation. I think she's going to stay out of the way around these lawsuits around tech, for example. I think people are waiting to hear policy from her. She can't just be the Biden administration. She needs to be, "What is Kamala Harris think of a variety of topics," including AI specifically, what does she think?
Audie Cornish
00:18:46
'I want to pause here, because Kamala Harris will be rolling out some new policy soon, so we may get some answers. In the meantime. Harris kicked off the week raising more than $12 million from tech community donors in San Francisco and knocked Trump and Elon Musk as a couple of self-obsessed rich guys.
Elon Musk
00:19:04
I think we're at a fork in the road of destiny, of of civilization. And, and I think we need to take the, the, the right path. And, and I think, you're on the right path. So I think that's where it comes down.
Donald Trump
00:19:17
Thank you very much, Elon. It's a great honor.
Audie Cornish
00:19:19
I asked Kara if there's another way we can look at that relationship.
Kara Swisher
00:19:23
I think in Trump's case, he wants to stay out of jail. I think this is his main driver of everything he's doing. He needs some money to do so. And any kind of any kind of help he can get, he'll take essentially. And Elon's a very powerful ally in that regard. In Elon's case, if Kamala Harris wins or Biden had won or whatever, he's in a world of hurt going forward because there's lawsuits galore all over the place around. SEC is looking at Tesla for fraud. There's all these questions about national security clearance that I've been hearing over and over again from a lot of very pertinent people about SpaceX and his links to the government and his whether he should have a security clearance. He's going to be subject to a world of hurt under a Harris administration compared to Trump, one where Trump will let these things go, right? And so he has got to grasp very hard on to Donald Trump and make sure he wins, because from a financial point of view, his companies are going to have a lot more trouble. And so that he embraces Donald Trump makes perfect sense to me, because no matter what you think of Elon Musk, it's all about his business interests. And he knows where his bread is buttered in this particular administration, which would be Trump would help him much more so than Harris, who would hurt him, I think.
Audie Cornish
00:20:42
'And not to be Pollyanna about it, but also the political divisiveness that so many of us normies are struggling with right now is affecting everyone. The so-called PayPal mafia. Like they're not buddies anymore, right? Like that handful of founders, like they bicker with each other about politics, like, but it's the idea that, like, no, where is safe. Even if you're a multi-billionaire who who thinks he's going to like, you know, take rockets to the moon when things go wrong at the Earth, or like people at your Thanksgiving table like these divides, they kind of make their these cracks show and everything.
Kara Swisher
00:21:23
'I agree, I think again, look at the money. Who's going to benefit from what? And to me, the ones on the Trump side are going to benefit financially. There's certain people who who have a version of Silicon Valley in tech that's a little more tolerant in that old San Francisco way, right? Like let's live and let live kind of thing. And then there's this group that really believes that we are hurtling towards darkness, and the only thing that will work is a strong man to save us. And because they have some money, you know, like someone who's gotten a lot of promise, David Sacks, he was a middling entrepreneur, I would say -- middling -- not impressive, but he's got money. And so now he can, you know, swan around and give a speech at a very bad speech, by the way.
Audie Cornish
00:22:06
But a speech nonetheless on stage at the Republican National Convention.
Kara Swisher
00:22:10
I mean, I think, you know, they they're making their play just like other industrialists have done for centuries. Right?
Audie Cornish
00:22:16
So will it work to say this more clearly, like there was this little report, I think it was Yahoo Finance. And they quoted Trevor Traina, who is a Trump backer, and he said, look, Kamala is a dear friend of mine. I like her very much. And then he said, it's just that in today's world, candidates who want to be successful on the left have to toe the line on the whole Elizabeth Warren school of thought. This message writ large is what is going to be said about Kamala Harris, right? That fundamentally she is very liberal or very radical. This is the counter attack. I don't know if it will work.
Kara Swisher
00:22:50
It's just not true. It's just not true. It's just I watched her as attorney general. I pressed her to be more tougher on tech companies and she wasn't. She just wasn't. She had the opportunity as senator and as AG to do a lot more during those years. So I've seen her in action and I would say she is a... I've always seen her someone who takes sort of the middle road on most things with a proclivity toward: don't discriminate, you know what I mean? Like, but not by no means someone who's any kind of radical leftist. From a business point of view, she's business friendly compared to the way a lot of people are in California.
Audie Cornish
00:23:28
In the end. Is California having a moment?
Kara Swisher
00:23:31
It is. California is always having a moment. Let me just say it's always reinventing itself. And other places can't do that.
Audie Cornish
00:23:39
But as much as, as much as, people are using California, almost like as a slur politically.
Kara Swisher
00:23:45
Not now.
Audie Cornish
00:23:46
You see both candidates, right. Beating a path back there to raise the money.
Kara Swisher
00:23:52
California is always reinventing itself, and there's meaning you're going to get wild swings and things that go down and crash and things that go up. But there's no place like it in this country in terms of, excitement around innovation right now. There's no better place where businesses can really create. You can take away their taxes if you're in Texas, or you can let Elon build whatever stupid town he wants to build in Texas. But nobody's flocking there. They're just not. California's still, you know, the giving and taking states. It's always been a giving state. So, now it may give us the first female woman of color as president.
Audie Cornish
00:24:27
It does appeal to me what you're saying that, as Silicon Valley matures and the tech industry matures, its politics will change as well, because I do hear a lot of things from that tech bro world that really feel like they're just about justifying the things they want to take.
Kara Swisher
00:24:51
That's correct.
Audie Cornish
00:24:51
That they're not actually about building a better society, which is the language they use to sell it to us. Not that I second guess them as Republicans, but as you said, I second guess the motivations from a community that believes it's fundamentally better and singularly capable of solving all problems, like without the rest of us, when they have not proven they can do that.
Kara Swisher
00:25:17
But you know, Audie, when you're rich, you're better than people in case you're interested. No. Let me go back. I wrote a story when I went to the Wall Street Journal. I got there in 1997. One of the first stories I wrote was all of these ridiculous tropes they would have. I'm here to save the world. I'm here to build community. I'm here to better man. And I'm like, you're selling Twinkies. You're. It's a version of Twinkie selling. And I did a whole story in the Wall Street Journal about the canards, these people, these lies these people told themselves you wouldn't get an investment banker going, "What I'm really here to do care is solve world peace." You'd laugh them out of the room, right? You're here to make money. And I think one of the things we have to keep in mind about tech people is they're here to take all your stuff, and they're here to take to be richer than you are. And if you if you have it on those terms, you can ignore almost everything Elon Musk says. Or any of them.
Audie Cornish
00:26:06
Well, unless they spend the most money in your election and then they're unavoidable.
Kara Swisher
00:26:11
Yes, except if they lose, it's a little harder.
Audie Cornish
00:26:17
'Kara Swisher, journalist and author of the bestseller "Burn Book: A Tech Love Story." You can find her on the Vox Media podcast, "Pivot." And I will be joining her and her co-host, NYU professor Scott Galloway, on that show next week in Chicago at the Democratic National Convention, where we will also be broadcasting the next episode of The Assignment. Ahead of that trip, I'd love for you to send your questions and assignments for us via our tip line. The number is (202) 854-8802. You can call. You can text. You can send us a text of a voice memo however you feel comfortable. Just know that I definitely listen to them. The Assignment is a production of CNN audio. And this episode was produced by Graelyn Brashear. Our senior producer is Matt Martinez. Dan Dzula is our technical director, and Steve Lickteig is the executive producer of CNN audio. We had support from Haley Thomas, Alex Mannaseri, Robert Mathers, John Dianora, Leni Steinhardt, Jamus Andrest, Nicole Pesaru, and Lisa Namerow. Special thanks to Katie Hinman and thank you all for listening.