podcast
Chasing Life
All over the world, there are people who are living extraordinary lives, full of happiness and health – and with hardly any heart disease, cancer or diabetes. Dr. Sanjay Gupta has been on a decades-long mission to understand how they do it, and how we can all learn from them. Scientists now believe we can even reverse the symptoms of Alzheimer’s dementia, and in fact grow sharper and more resilient as we age. Sanjay is a dad – of three teenage daughters, he is a doctor - who operates on the brain, and he is a reporter with more than two decades of experience - who travels the earth to uncover and bring you the secrets of the happiest and healthiest people on the planet – so that you too, can Chase Life.
Mind of a Medalist
Chasing Life
Jul 30, 2024
Nearly 11,000 athletes are competing in the Paris Olympic Games right now. They’ve been training their bodies to compete at the highest levels of sport. But what kind of mindset does it take to bring home the gold, silver or bronze medal? How do they navigate nerves and perform under pressure? Cognitive scientist, Dartmouth College President and former athlete, Sian Beilock says that practicing under pressure situations and focusing on the present can help. Plus, four-time Olympic medalist, Dominique Dawes recounts how she overcame several stumbles and still won gold.
Episode Transcript
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:00:00
'I don't know about you, but I'm a huge sports fan. I'm someone who really enjoys watching people perform at the top of their game, and the Olympics have always been appointment viewing for me and my family. It's one of the few things we all watch together. And when I watch, I can't help but wonder, what does it really take to be the best? What does it mean to score a perfect ten? Especially when the world is watching and your country's pride is on the line? What does it feel like when years of dedication come down to one race, one final lap, one perfect dismount at that moment? What separates the athletes on the podium from everyone else? Three-time Olympian and four-time Olympic medalist Dominique Dawes says the answer really has more to do with the mind than the body.
Dominique Dawes
00:00:55
It's all mental at that point at the Olympic Games, physically, you already know what to do. Your muscles have memories. You've done those tumbling passes, that dance routine thousands and thousands of times. You don't want to overthink things.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:01:06
'Don't overthink. Sounds easy enough, right? But it's not so much as Dominique will tell you. Picture this: it's 1996; the Olympic Games are in Atlanta; Dominique is just 19-years-old - the age of my oldest daughter. She's a member of the U.S. women's gymnastics team that later became known as the Magnificent Seven. They were the first to win gold at the Olympics for Team USA. Now, many of you may remember this moment. But what you may not know is that as Dominique steps up to the mat, there was a lot going through her mind in that moment. In fact, a lot more than just the thoughts about executing a perfect floor routine. Right then it felt like she had the weight of the world on her shoulders.
Dominique Dawes
00:01:54
I remember being in the Georgia Dome with nearly 40,000 people, and I remember looking at different areas of the arena. And the reason why is because my parents were going through a bitter divorce.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:02:05
'Dominique knew that it was her last chance to win an individual medal, and to make history as the first Black American woman in Olympic gymnastics to do so. She's 19-years-old. Talk about pressure. And her first instinct is to think too much.
Dominique Dawes
00:02:22
My coaches always say analysis paralysis. I would try to overthink things and need to control things.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:02:28
But then her training, her mental training, that is, is what kicks in.
Dominique Dawes
00:02:33
I had practiced so many hours and days and years in the gym that my body already knew what to do. It just needed to go on autopilot, and so I needed to shut out any insecurities or thinking about that failure that happened days earlier. And I saw the opportunity to earn a medal in the floor exercise as a second chance. You don't get a lot of second chances at an Olympic Games. You know, to come back and redeem yourself. And I was given that opportunity and I just kind of let go and embraced the moment and allowed my body and my mind just to kind of do what I did best.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:03:08
And as you know, the rest is history. Dominique nailed the routine. She ended the day with a medal, and also a place in the hearts and minds of a generation of athletes and fans. In so many ways, Dominique embodied the Olympic spirit. But here's the thing, as a neurosurgeon, what I find so interesting are the different ingredients of the process Dominique described. Like going on autopilot, letting go, embracing the moment. Brain science can actually explain why those make up a recipe for winning. Brain science can also explain why, for some athletes, the pressure of performing or competing in events like the Olympics just becomes too much to handle. It's something that I talked about with athlete turned cognitive scientist, Sian Beilock.
Sian Beilock
00:03:58
What my research has shown is that when high level athletes especially are worried about the situation and what's going to happen, they start trying to control aspects of what they're doing, and that added control can actually disrupt what would otherwise be a fluid movement.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:04:14
'Beilock says this - what makes the world's best athletes and competitors so special is their ability to tune out pressure, to quiet their minds when the lights get bright, so that they can get out of their own way and then rise to the moment. Now, for those of us that will be watching from the sidelines, that ability will probably look pretty natural, pretty innate. But science also tells us that really, it's just another skill, and it's one that anyone can learn.
Sian Beilock
00:04:43
You're not born a choker or a thriver. You can practice to get better in stressful situations.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:04:49
Dominique has been on both sides of the equation.
Dominique Dawes
00:04:52
I think a lot of times we like to focus on the perfection and the success and the gold medal, but it's really those hardships that I went through in life that really shaped my character and who I am today. There are times where I was able to compartmentalize things and really control my thought process, and there are many times that, you know, I failed and it got the worst of me. But I was able to learn from those mistakes and failures along the way.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:05:14
'So today on the podcast, we're doing something special. We're going to dive into the mind of a medalist with two guests. First, Dominique Dawes will share her journey to developing a championship mindset and later, cognitive scientist and the current president of Dartmouth College, Sian Beilock, breaks down what it takes for anyone to perform under pressure - from Simone Biles to LeBron James, to me and to you. I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN's Chief Medical Correspondent, and this is Chasing Life.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:05:54
What a pleasure to speak to you. I've really been looking forward to this. How have you been? What's going on?
Dominique Dawes
00:06:00
'Wow. Life is just kind of, pretty busy now as a mom, a wife and I have four little kids. A ten-year-old, an eight-year-old about to turn nine-years-old, and six-year-old twins.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:06:10
So you're busy. How much is athletics still a part of your life?
Dominique Dawes
00:06:14
Athletics are still a part of my life. I am opening my third gymnastics and ninja academy here in Maryland. And the reason why I opened these academies is I wanted to make sure there was a positive, encouraging, and empowering place for young girls and possibly young boys that want to be introduced to the sport of gymnastics to go to. The culture of the sport can be very harsh and I wanted to change that.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:06:35
What do you mean by that? Very harsh.
Dominique Dawes
00:06:38
Just a lot of pressure, a lot of expectations. When you put your little one in the sport of gymnastics, he or she or they're usually very elated to learn cartwheels and forward rolls and splits. And then all of a sudden, at one point in the sport, at a very young age, many gyms start grooming kids and parents to go toward that competitive track. And many times that adds a great deal of pressure. There's a lot of expectations, and that then starts to take a toll on the young child physically, emotionally, as well as mentally and socially. And that's what I went through for 18 years of my career. And as a mom of four, I want something different for my kids.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:07:12
It's really interesting to hear you just be so, so candid about this, because look at your career. You're considered one of the best in the world. So all that pressure led to you being you and accomplishing all that you've accomplished. How do you how do you find the balance then?
Dominique Dawes
00:07:31
Well, I think the thing is, is accomplishing things. And being successful in the world's eyes does not necessarily lead to happiness and joy and fulfillment. When I was standing on top of the podium in Atlanta, Georgia, it was an honor to be a part of that team known as the Magnificent Seven, and to be the first ever women's gymnastics team to win gold. When I stood on that podium with my hand over my heart, I remember thinking, was this it? Like I had dedicated 13 years at that point of my childhood to that moment. And while I was very, you know, gracious and honored to be a part of that team, I realized the more I grew up and became more mature and an adult in life, it's not about getting on top of the podiums or being a person of power or prestige or recognition. It's really the little things in life that lead to everlasting joy.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:08:16
It's such an interesting visual, and I know you've talked about this and you've written about it, but but seeing you on that podium hand over heart and you know, like I think for so many people, myself included, seeing you there, you think, wow, I mean, that that is what life is about. I mean, she she works so hard. She got to this point. She accomplished this goal. She was the best of the best. And yet there was, there's more to the story.
Dominique Dawes
00:08:43
There was so much incompleteness. A lot of it had to do with my personal life as well. I remember being in the Georgia Dome with nearly 40,000 people, and I remember looking at different areas of the arena. And the reason why is because my parents were going through a bitter divorce. I mean, every Olympian, every athlete, every person, you really don't know what a person is going through in life until you walk a lifetime in their moccasins. Just think, Simone Biles, when she stepped away from the Olympic Games in 2021 in Tokyo, a lot of people were quick to attack that young woman, but yet they don't know what she's gone through, not only as an athlete but also as an individual. And that really does shape one's perception of the world around them and their experiences that they're taking on.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:09:27
When people hear you describing this, this time in your life, it makes your mindset and how you mentally prepared seem even more remarkable. Is there something unique would you say about the mindset or mental fortitude of medalists that separates them from the pack?
Dominique Dawes
00:09:44
'Well, I think they have an uncanny way to maybe shut out the rest of the world or compartmentalize certain aspects that are going to negatively impact their performance. However, if you look back at my career, Sanjay, there were multiple opportunities where I could have won the World Championships and I choked both times. And even in preparation for this interview, I watched one of my performances and I wept nearly. I mean, I didn't really cry, but I wept on the inside for that young child because I knew what I was going through personally, and I could just see, you know, the concerns and the pressure and the insecurity that I was feeling. And then also at the 1996 Olympic Games, I had an opportunity to be on the podium in the All-Around competition, and I fell on my best event, the floor exercise. And so there are times where I was able to compartmentalize things and block things out and really control my thought process and control my emotions. And there are many times that, you know, I failed and it got the worst of me, but I was able to learn from those mistakes and failures along the way.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:10:47
It is interesting, I think that the way that you are embedded in our memories, at least certainly my memory, is not those those chokes, but rather all that you accomplished. I just wanted to say that because you're mentioning this stuff now, and I guess maybe in the back of my mind I remembered that, but it certainly is not at the forefront of my mind.
Dominique Dawes
00:11:06
Yeah, but it does define me. And it made me who I am today. And so while I think people do remember me for my achievements, and I'm standing on top of the podium or winning national championships, I want them to remember the full journey of when I failed, of when I was in tears, and to look at how I was able to come back stronger from my next performance, because that is really life. Those are moments where we can shape our character. Those are lessons that can be learned. It's important during those hard, low moments to kind of dig yourself out of the muck and mire, because that's what's going to get you to the top of that mountaintop. And guess what? You're going to end up falling back off that mountain, and you're going to try to strive to get up there again.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:11:46
Going back to Atlanta, I guess if you look at the sequence of events, there was a moment where there was going to be sort of your last chance for an individual medal in Atlanta, and you're about to do that routine. How do you navigate that sort of pressure? Given everything that we've just talked about, you know, your previous, any earlier stumbles, things like that. What do you do? Is it is it a physical sort of navigating of the pressure? Is it all mental?
Dominique Dawes
00:12:12
It's all mental. At that point at the Olympic Games, physically, you already know what to do. Your muscles have memories. You've done those tumbling passes that dance routine thousands and thousands of times. You don't want to overthink things, so it becomes very mental where you don't want to overanalyze things. My coach used to always say, analysis paralysis. I would try to overthink things and need to control things, but I had practiced so many hours and days and years in the gym that my body already knew what to do. It just needed to go on autopilot.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:12:43
Do you think about nothing or do you think about something totally unrelated?
Dominique Dawes
00:12:47
'I was very big on creating personal mottos so that I could control my thoughts. And so back then, I would focus on a personal motto when I was a young child and it was called D3 - determination, dedication, desire. And I really just meditated on that. I repeated it time and time again, so that when those doubts would come into my mind that I wasn't enough or the judges don't like me, I would block out all of that negativity and even block out the audience. Like there's 40,000 people cheering and chanting. They loved me out there. And that just added a whole nother element of pressure. And so I would block it all out and just really stay focused on my personal motto to make sure I was controlling all of my thoughts.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:13:26
Could you, could you predict if you were going to choke?
Dominique Dawes
00:13:31
I mean, I probably if you could get into my little mind now, I would tell you if I was going to make it or not, kind of. I probably wasn't thinking about D3. I wasn't controlling my breathing, getting way too far ahead of myself. I mean, you can looked in my body language that I looked stressed.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:13:47
When you watch, I imagine you'll be watching the Olympics. I can only imagine that's big in your household.
Dominique Dawes
00:13:52
Yeah It is.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:13:53
I mean, everyone's household.
Dominique Dawes
00:13:53
It Is.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:13:54
'So everyone watches the routines. Do you watch the pre-routine? You know, all these things that we're talking about are the things that are flags to you are things you watch out for?
Dominique Dawes
00:14:03
I mean I can tell looking at an athlete if they seem as if they're mentally or emotionally off. I know recently when watching Suni Lee, she's definitely doing some form of a breathing technique because she holds her belly. And I think she's trying to control, you know, her, her breathing, her thoughts, maybe even doing some visualization. Some athlete do that, some don't. Many times you'll see them physically do parts of their routine before, but I think they try to stick to their routines. Think about how in a professional basketball player, college or high school basketball player, they have their set routine before that foul shot. Gymnasts are very similar where they are a little superstitious and they like to go to the chalk box a certain way. They have certain rituals that they do prior to their preparation to compete. And so many times I like to watch the athletes body language, what it looks like going on in their mind, before they step on the piece of apparatus.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:14:57
You mentioned Simone Biles earlier. This will be her third Olympics and you talked about what happened in 2020. She said she withdrew to focus on her mental health, which I thought was really brave. I, you know, I've been a medical reporter for over 20 years, and this is one area that always gets short shrift. It just we don't talk about it enough. Talking about it more no, but and part of that's thanks to her. But I'm not sure if you've spoken to her, but if you were giving her advice, what would you tell her? Just given all that we know about her and what happened last time?
Dominique Dawes
00:15:27
I would say don't take advice from me. I would say, don't take advice from people that are not in your support system. Like they know you best. They know what you've gone through in life as a child. You know, those are the individuals that she needs to lean on and to cry with or to laugh with. Because when she wins, they'll be there to celebrate her and lift her up. And if she makes a mistake and falters, they'll be there to be that shoulder to cry on. I think you know, she's an exceptional athlete, but more importantly, she's an exceptional human being. She's had a journey and a walk through life that many people, you know, maybe wouldn't have continued to persevere and overcome those obstacles as she has. And so I do admire what she's done. I think it's wonderful that she listened to her inner voice in 2021. I think a lot of people attacked her. But gymnasts normally, we don't hear our inner voice. It's usually drowned out by our coaches or by the national governing body, where they tell us, you are doing this no matter what. And look at her. She didn't have that quitters mentality that a lot of people said she had.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:16:26
You have a lot of wisdom and some of that just comes with age. For a lot of people, the lens that they look at life is, it starts to get longer, as you get older, you're able to look into the future I think more clearly. It's harder when you're younger.
Dominique Dawes
00:16:41
Yeah.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:16:42
And given that when you think about things that way, when you're talking to kids, even your own kids, do, they have to sort of learn some of these lessons themselves? Or is it something that can be taught, do you think?
Dominique Dawes
00:16:55
I would love to be able to protect my children from everything. I am that kind of parent. But I also do know that they need to fail and they need to learn from mistakes in life. But I want to make sure any falter or failure that they experience in life, that it's something that they can bounce back from. Life is full of, it's full of hardship. There's challenges all the time. There's change all the time. We cannot control everything. And I think it's important for our children to know that and to also know that this is just a journey. That it's not this destination where you are now stuck in this painful situation, or you're stuck in this moment where you're maybe not happy. You got to persevere and never give up, and you never know what's around the corner.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:17:35
And if it were one of your children or one of your your students that you saw putting too much pressure on themselves and you know, you know that you know the signs and you could see it and you realized that it was highly motivating for them. But it could turn into something that could be quite painful for them or problematic for them later on. Well, what do you do? And I'll preface by saying this again, my kids are older than your kids, but my middle daughter, I think falls into this.
Dominique Dawes
00:18:05
Yeah.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:18:05
She puts an inordinate amount of pressure on herself, Dominique. It's not in sports, it's more in scholastics. But you can she's, you know, literally at times pulling her hair out, studying for exams. And, and she does really well in school. And yet, as a parent with the longer lens of life, I think, wow, you know, you're, you're you're making too big a deal about these things. That's just another quiz, another exam, another paper, whatever. And yet she, she's she's highly motivated by it. How do you find the balance?
Dominique Dawes
00:18:35
Yes, I always like that as well as one of my middle children. They're wired the exact same way. And I would say to let your child know that they're loved, unconditionally loved. I don't think you're going to change your child's personality, as much as we would like to rewire them, you know, they are wired that way. It's a part of the part of their nature. It's a part of just how they were born and just kind of reminding them, you know, that they're loved no matter if they overachieve or not, that you're always there for them. And I think that's something that I wish I had as a child. And there was one moment in 1994 when I was struggling leading up to the national championships, I was crying every single day in practice. I lived with my coach. So again, I wasn't going home all the time, and I always had to stay after practice. And one one mom, my teammate Alexis Norman, her mom, came up to me and she said, "Dom, I want you to know that you're loved, not because of your athletic achievements, but because of the person that you are." And I had never heard that before. And I remember breaking down again and crying again. And still to this day, those are words that resonate with me. That it's not about your worldly accomplishments or achievements or accolades. It's really about the person you are, and the person you are will impact the world around you just by having a great heart, if you make that conscious effort.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:19:55
For what it's worth, you seem like a great, great mom.
Dominique Dawes
00:19:58
Oh well, thank you so much.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:19:59
Much and what a pleasure to speaking to you. Thank you for your time.
Dominique Dawes
00:20:02
Yes, thank you so much, Sanjay. Appreciate it.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:20:05
Coming up, the science of performing under pressure from the Olympics to the classroom. More after the break.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:20:17
All right. We can't all be like Dominique Dawes. We can't all be contenders for Olympic gold. But I do think that anyone listening can relate to Dominique in two fundamental ways. First of all, we all know what it's like to feel pressure. Maybe not on a stage with the whole world watching, but we've all had that game, or that test, or that big presentation at work that we desperately wanted to nail. We all face pressure. That's life. And I think the other way that we're all like Dominique is that at some point somewhere, we've all messed up.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:20:53
Does everyone choke?
Sian Beilock
00:20:55
I think so, yes.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:20:56
It's you. So you have to anticipate that that's going to be a part of your your life or your sport or whatever it might be.
Sian Beilock
00:21:02
You've got to. And I think that comes back to this idea of what you do in the aftermath.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:21:08
That Sian Beilock, she is the president of Dartmouth College. She's also a cognitive scientist who studies why people choke under pressure and how to avoid it. She has studied this with everyone from golfers to hockey players to math students. And for her, the question of choking in all walks of life is something of an obsession. It's very personal for Sian. You see, back in high school, she played soccer. She was a goalie and she was a really good goalie. So good, in fact, that one game she turned around and noticed that someone was watching her. It was a coach for the U.S. national team.
Sian Beilock
00:21:44
This is the coach that you need to like what you do, so that you can have possibilities to think about the national team, Olympics and so on. And I was having a pretty good game. And when I realized he was standing behind me in the matter of a few minutes, I led to horrible goals in, just goals I should have saved.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:22:05
'In a way, Sian's entire scientific career has been dedicated to wrestling with that experience. In fact, instead of calling it research, she calls it me-search. Now, as a former athlete turned scientist, her obsession with choking also extends to the Olympics.
Sian Beilock
00:22:24
'I'm always really interested in how athletes are getting ready for the event, so like their pre-performance routine, the athletes who tend to get ready the same way every time. It sort of makes the Olympics not as not as pressure filled.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:22:38
'So I asked Sian to unpack this idea of pressure - what impact pressure really has on the brain. Why some of the world's greatest athletes actually play better under pressure, while others crumble. But what I especially wanted to know is what anyone can do to perform their best in the moments where it matters most.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:22:59
Yogi Berra, who was known for a lot of things, including his quotes said, "baseball is 90% mental and the other half is physical."
Sian Beilock
00:23:07
He also said, "you can't hit and think at the same time," which is the one I like the best.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:23:11
He said, "I don't like making predictions, especially about the future." We can go on and on. But but I mean, this idea of mental and physical, I think what he's fundamentally saying is, you know, they're already an established athlete. So the mindset at that point matters more than their physical abilities or their talent. Is there truth to that? I mean, does science back that up.
Sian Beilock
00:23:30
Yeah. I mean, it's one of the reasons we watch the Olympics, right? Athletes have broken records in the pool by themselves when no one's watching. The question is, can people do it when they're on the highest stage? And that's really where the mental comes out. If we knew exactly from people how they practiced or their stats at running, you know, a race by themselves, we wouldn't need to watch the competition. But what's so, I think, inherently interesting to so many of us is that this is when the mental really comes through.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:24:04
Just to set the table. What what is choking?
Sian Beilock
00:24:07
As a scientist, when we define choking, we mean performing more poorly than expected, given your skill level, precisely because you feel pressure in a situation. My research and others have shown that in these high pressure situations, people worry. They worry about the consequences. They worry what others will think of them. They worry about what's on the line. And ironically, when you worry in this way, one of the ways you try and deal with it is you start paying a lot of attention to every step of what you're doing. And that added control can actually disrupt what would otherwise be a fluid movement. We do lots of things, especially in athletics on autopilot. And what my research has shown is that when high level athletes especially, are worried about the situation and what's going to happen, they start trying to control aspects of what they're doing and they actually disrupt themselves. If you're thinking about how your elbow is positioned as you're hitting the forehand, for an Olympic level athlete, that's likely to make them perform poorly.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:25:05
'Let me jump in here to quickly break down the brain science of what Sian is talking about. So, you know, the prefrontal cortex, that's the part of our brain that controls executive function, like decision making, problem solving, self-control. Research has shown that highly trained athletes have practiced the movement patterns of their sports so many times that they pretty much bypass the prefrontal cortex. They can run, jump, throw whatever movement their sport requires, all outside of conscious effort. Think about that - outside of conscious effort. That's really what Sian means by autopilot. But here is the rub. When athletes start to feel pressure, that prefrontal cortex can go into hyperdrive. They start to focus on the details of how they run, how they jump. And ironically, this overthinking gets in their way and they end up choking. Athletes are often described as being in the zone or sort of locked in. From a cognitive standpoint, you know, what does that mean? And let me just preface by saying that I like athletics. I was never an athlete like you were, but I enjoy playing sports and things like that. I am in the operating room all the time. And I think there is some parallels between training residents who are watching people who are really good in the operating room with athletes. There's a lot of athletes who go into neurosurgery, for example. I think again, finding that balance when someone's locked in, I, I would describe them as being fully prepared, fully prepared. From an athletic standpoint, what does it mean if someone is in the zone or locked in?
Sian Beilock
00:26:43
Yeah, I mean, I think it's the same thing. You've practiced you practiced under stressful situations and you're ready to again show what you know. And so I would argue there's a lot of similarities between performances in high pressure situations, whether it's athletics or surgery or a violin solo. These are all situations where your goal is to make that really important performance very similar to what you've done in the past.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:27:12
I don't want them to be under thinking it. I think that what you're saying is you don't want them to be overthinking it.
Sian Beilock
00:27:20
Yes. And I think you want them to be thinking about the right things.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:27:24
Again, not to draw too many parallels between the operating room and sporting events. But I know even when I'm scrubbing my hands before a case, I will sort of be thinking pretty deeply about the operation I'm about to do, which, you know, I guess that makes sense. But, you know, going through everything, where exactly is this tumor located? Where are the surrounding blood vessels, all of that. Just framing it over and over again in my head. When you think about these athletes during the Olympics, how do you, from a cognitive standpoint, how do you think they should be preparing in the immediate sort of time preceding the events?
Sian Beilock
00:28:01
Yeah, I mean, I know a lot of athletes listen to music or they're thinking about, you know, a couple different things, right? Like you mentioned, you're thinking a lot about the blood vessels and the tumor. You're not thinking about exactly how you hold the scalpel I would argue. You're thinking about sort of the strategy. And a lot of athletes think about that, right. Like who the their opponent is, the big sort of important global things that they want to be focused on. I would argue as a cognitive scientist, we'd talk about it as high level, like the meta thoughts rather than being in the weeds. And then this comes back to practice, right? I'm assuming, and I think it's true that all these athletes have spent a lot of time practicing in pressure situations and have seen what works well and what doesn't. And so you're trying to find that sweet spot for every athlete. And that's what's so interesting is that it's not the same for everyone.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:28:57
I just find it so interesting in some ways. I mean, even going back to your your experience as a goalie, you have to be very comfortable, it seems, with failure. I mean, you did you describe that as a failure letting those two shots go in the net? I mean.
Sian Beilock
00:29:12
Definitely, and you have to be comfortable with that. And if I think if I'd been comfortable with the first shot going in and I might have been able to save the second. And you have to recover quickly, right. And so we also know there's techniques that can help athlete to recover. So how do you think about your failure. Did I just let my country down? Or was I off the blocks late and I can fix that on my next swim, right? That's a very different way to think about what just happened. And one gives you a sense of control and one gives you a sense of helplessness. And we know that sense of control is really important for performing well.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:29:49
What is the, what is the recency effect and how does that apply here?
Sian Beilock
00:29:54
The recency effect is this idea that what happened most recently can have an impact on on how you perform. And certainly if you have a bad race or a bad event, the idea then is to recover on the spot. And if you're thinking something negative is going to happen, there's a likelihood it will.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:30:12
I want to jump in here because I think it's a really important point. The second mentioned, the recency effect, is a psychological tendency that basically keeps whatever happened most recently at the top of your mind. In other words, it's sort of a cognitive bias that can make us fixate on the last play. And it means that if your last play was a great shot, then you're probably feeling pretty good. But if the last play was a drop pass, then maybe you start to worry. That causes you to overthink the details and maybe eventually you choke. In sports, the best athletes fight off the recency effect with a "next play" mentality. Instead of recency, you're thinking about the next play. It's something that tennis legend Roger Federer talked about in a commencement address he gave earlier this year at Dartmouth. In fact, Sian was sitting right behind him as the president as he delivered the speech. And there was one piece of Federer's talk that got a lot of attention on the internet, maybe you even saw it. It was a clip where he shared this revealing statistic from his career. He said that despite winning nearly 80% of the matches he played, he only won 54% of the points played in those matches.
Roger Federer
00:31:28
In other words, even top ranked tennis players, win barely more than half of the points they play. When you lose every second point on average, you learn not to dwell on every shot. You teach yourself to think, okay, I double faulted. It's only a point. Okay, I came to the net, then I got past again. It's only a point. Even a great shot. An overhead backhand smash that ends up on ESPN's top ten play list. That too is just a point. So here's why I'm telling you this. When you're playing a point, it has to be the most important thing in the world. And it is. But when it's behind you, it's behind you. This mindset is really crucial because it frees you to fully commit to the next point. At the next point after that, with intensity, clarity, and focus.
Sian Beilock
00:32:18
'I just thought that was so important to underscore. Choking is not normal ups and downs. We all do better and worse in situations. And it doesn't mean being perfect is the antidote to underperformance. It's that you've got to win more than you lose, and it's not winning every point, and it's being able to come back from that failure and then do better the next time around. So there's some work showing that when people are kind to themselves, when they can, they have self-compassion, they can come back from suffering from something that that happened that was really hard, right? We tend to be our own worst critics and beat ourselves up. But if you can show yourself a little self-compassion, that can be mentally healthy. And I am a big fan of just power worrying, getting those thoughts out, spending ten minutes writing and then closing the journal and being done and then getting back to what you want to do. And when I interviewed Roger Federer in front of the tennis teams and our coaches, he talked about some of his most disappointing losses in his career. And one thing he said was, yeah, I went and, you know, lay on the bed for ten minutes after losing Wimbledon or something. And then I got up and went and to be with my family. And I thought, you know, that's a great example of sort of giving yourself that moment to wallow or be sad, but then being disciplined and going on to the next step.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:33:44
Most, most people who are listening are not competing in the Olympics, obviously, but everyone has these goals, you know, whatever it might be, and experience where they may feel pressure to achieve those goals. How do you avoid choking in those situations? Is it the same advice as you would give athletes?
Sian Beilock
00:34:02
I think, you know, inherently, again, we're interested in the athletes because a lot of this applies to us, right? Whether it's walking into a meeting or getting into an elevator with your boss, even introducing yourself to someone at a party. These can all be choking situations. And so a lot of the advice is the same. Like if you're going to give a toast at a wedding in front of everyone, friends and family, you should be practicing that toast in front of other people or in front of the mirror, or at least videotaping yourself getting ready for that situation. If you're going to have a couple of glasses of wine before you give the toast, I'd maybe practice that way too, right? The idea is to sort of get ready for whatever situation you're going to be in. And I think oftentimes, like in my research, we've shown that when students are really anxious about, say, taking a math test, they don't actually study the hard problems there, they just read the book and then they put it away. They're like actively not preparing in the right way because it's uncomfortable to do something that that is hard. So it's figuring out how you actually prepare. Getting ready to the point where you feel like you can go in and just do it.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:35:01
When your kids choke, what is the best way to sort of be a parent, or what's the best guidance you think for parents at that point?
Sian Beilock
00:35:11
First, I think, you know, to normalize it, as we've talked about, that, everyone feels that this is part of life. I think sometimes parents, you have this tendency to say, no, no, it was fine. But kids are smart. They know what happened and what they felt. And I think I'd call it out. And then I'd ask, okay, what are we going to do different? Are there things you can learn? And I'd also make it clear that it's okay to feel bad about it. I think we want oftentimes our kids not to feel bad. It's like such a parenting instinct. But I think there's real power and feeling bad about it. But then you've got to take that next step forward.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:35:45
'So what does it take to be the best? What makes gold medalists great? They practice how they play. They don't overthink things. And when they lose, because everyone will lose, they own it. They wallow in it. They reflect on it. And then they move on. Yeah. They practice a little self-compassion. But then they get right back into the game. If these lessons sounds simple, I think it's because they are. I think we've all probably heard some version of them from a coach, a teacher or a parent. But mastering them requires finding the techniques that are going to work for you. Whether it's repeating a motto like Dominique's D3, or maybe using a breathing technique that centers you when the pressure sets in. That and a whole lot of practice, that's the Olympic way. On that note, I wanted to share a voicemail from a listener about how she is chasing life. This week, Stacey shared how she developed the confidence to take a big leap.
Stacey
00:36:50
All my life, I felt I wasn't good enough to finish college, and I was very insecure about my capacity to learn in a traditional environment. However, over the decades I have gained more compassion, confidence and love for myself and I'm ready to take the plunge. I start back to college this summer. I am, of course, doing this for me so that I can stop thinking to myself, if only I was young again, I would do it all different, but rather why not? Just go for it. You've got this. I am also doing this to be an example to my kids, to show them it doesn't matter how old you are. Go for your dreams. Set your goals. Have that confidence, compassion and love for you.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:37:34
Thank you Stacey and thanks to all of you for listening.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:37:39
Chasing life is a production of CNN Audio. Our podcast is produced by Eryn Mathewson, Jennifer Lai, Grace Walker, and Jesse Remedios. Our senior producer and showrunner is Felicia Patinkin. Andrea Kane is our medical writer. Dan Dzula is our technical director and the executive producer of CNN Audio is the Steve Lickteig. With support from Jamus Andrest, Jon Dianora, Haley Thomas, Alex Manasseri, Robert Mathers, Leni Steinhardt, Nichole Pesaru, and Lisa Namerow. Special thanks to Ben Tinker, Amanda Sealy and Nadia Kounang of CNN Health and Katie Hinman.