Christian Goodreaders discussion

Some interest has been expressed recently about having a thread where we can discuss the various Christian views about gender relations (that is, the question of how males and females should relate to each other, in the family, in the church, and in society as a whole). So, here it is, open for discussion to anyone who wants to post here.

IMO, an excellent book on this topic is Paul, Women, and Wives: Marriage and Women's Ministry in the Letters of Paul by Craig S. Keener. I've never written a review of it, but I gave it five stars.

Great, thank you!

You're welcome, T. C.!

Hi Jonathan. I appreciated your post. Though I must say, it looks like you were highlighting some of the more extreme cases. I have come across some changes lately that are more subtle. Ladies Bible studies have been eliminated where I am, because we have been told we can learn from our husbands. While, this can indeed happen, I don't see why I, as a woman, should be discouraged from independent study on my own. Just an example.

TC, does your church leadership specifically exclude women from the general Bible study group? If they have stopped a women only group from being a church sponsored activity but are happy with women attending a general study, would this be an ok place to be? Or does the leadership promote the Bible study as Men only?

I think it's tragic TC that the women in your church are being prevented from studying the Bible. That's so wrong and unbiblical.

My brother recently told my daughter that he did not believe the latest Star Wars movie was appropriate because it has a female protagonist. As such, she is taking the place of a male and this is supplanting male masculinity.
I'm rather embarrassed that he has this idea, and I'm wondering how common it is and what the ramifications would be.
My thoughts are that this is a very disempowering belief for women and girls. I don't think my daughter would have had the confidence to achieve all that she has if I had raised her with this concept. I also think it would be unhealthy for boys to be raised with this belief as I feel it could lead to unhealthy relationships in adulthood. And of course, I don't believe it's biblical, otherwise you would have to chop out all the heroic women from the Bible.
I'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts on this.

Just to clarify I'm referring to the Rogue movie, which I haven't seen and don't plan on seeing, frankly because I'm not interested.

That belief definitely seems odd, Janelle, but I believe it's something that it becoming more popular amongst some branches of Christianity. I think it's taking things to an unnecessary level and I certainly don't agree with it.

I thought it odd too, Lynne. But after I posted I googled it and found out that there has been opposition to this movie from some Christians because of the gender roles it portrays.
I'm no feminist, but I can't see the issue with women being portrayed as heroic, even in the fantastical genre of action science fiction. What are these Christians implying? That heroism is a purely masculine trait? I can't get my head around it.

The dominance of men over women is definitely being taken too far. There's nothing wrong with a woman being the hero. What about Queen Esther and the way she saved all the Jews from Haman? Was she emasculating Mordecai by saving him? If they have that problem with Rogue One, how can they justify the entire book of Esther?

Janelle and Lynne, I want to say a hearty "Amen!" to your comments about heroines on film (which, of course, apply to books --and more importantly to real life-- as well). I find nothing in the Bible to suggest that women are incapable of, or forbidden to engage in, heroic behavior --and as you ladies point out, certainly much to suggest the exact opposite. (Of course, the fact that I'm the founding moderator of the Action Heroine Fans group here on Goodreads probably telegraphs my stance on the subject!) I've seen Rogue One: A Star Wars Story; I consider it on a par dramatically with the films of the original trilogy (and actually the most emotionally powerful of the four) and have nothing but admiration for Jyn Erso's character. (That doesn't mean I endorse the whole "Force" mythos that underlies Lucas' Star Wars universe, which has rightly been said to be a perfect example of what Francis Schaeffer called "contentless mysticism." But I can appreciate depictions of heroism, and examinations of good vs. evil, even from non-Christian sources.)

My wife and I have three daughters, and no sons. As Christian parents, we always raised our girls to understand that moral and physical courage, willingness to fight for what's right and to stand up for the weak, strength to endure tough circumstances and challenges without self-pity and whining, loyalty, and the embrace of duty are all just basic human virtues, not "masculine virtues." If we'd had sons, we would have tried to raise them with the same understanding. IMO, children of either gender are short-changed if they're raised without that understanding.

As mentioned above, Esther is one of the female role models presented in the Bible. Others include Deborah (for whom our middle daughter is named), Jael, and Rahab. (That's not intended to be an exhaustive list, just a few examples who come to mind.) There are certainly present-day heroines who can be well taken as models to emulate, as well. For example, the security guard who was credited with saving over 100 lives in 2007, by stopping a heavily armed would-be mass shooter who'd entered a Colorado church building on Sunday morning after already killing four people, is a woman: http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/10/colo... . (That link is fuzzy on some details, because it was posted immediately after the incident; it was later definitely determined that the would-be shooter killed himself after Ms. Assam had wounded him.)

The discussion earlier about the dropping of the women's Bible study at T.C.'s church seems to have trailed off into oblivion, and I'm not sure why. Personally, I'm more in favor of Sunday school and other Bible study classes being open to both genders rather than segregated by sex (and I assume they are open to both in your church, T.C.?). That seems like a more natural way to learn, and more likely to foster unity in the church. (All through our married life, Barb and I have usually been in the same Sunday school class, with only a couple of exceptions: one church back in the 80s didn't offer a common adult class, and though the church we're in now does, they don't have any common small classes that allow for much discussion --they used to, but split it by gender a few years ago.) But I don't strongly oppose gender-specific classes either; I'm more interested in whether a class actually fosters real Bible study, as opposed to just going through the motions, than its gender make-up. The problem, as I see it, would be if a church offered a gender-specific class for men, but not for women. That, IMO, would be blatantly discriminatory. Of course, that's just my perspective; others may have a different one!

Yes, and for more 20th century equivalents there are Betsy and Corrie Ten Boom, who saved so many Jews in World War II in Holland.

Lynne wrote: "Yes, and for more 20th century equivalents there are Betsy and Corrie Ten Boom, who saved so many Jews in World War II in Holland."

Good example, Lynne! Another pair of heroines that we shouldn't forget are Elisabeth Elliot and Rachel Saint who, after their missionary husbands were killed in Ecuador by the Auca Indians in 1956, themselves went as missionaries to the same tribe (at obvious risk to their own lives) as missionaries, and were used by God to build what is today a strong Auca native church.

And Gladys and Esther Staines, who stayed in India after their husband/father and two sons/brothers were murdered.

Thanks for your comments Werner and Lynne. There are so many brave and heroic women in the Bible and in history to the present day. It's encouraging to remember their examples of faith.
I don't think I will ever understand the viewpoint of my brother and churches like TC's. I can only guess that they are reacting to the more strident and extreme representations of feminism. Personally I don't believe that going to the opposite extreme is the answer. We need to have a Biblical response, not a reactionary response. But I guess that they believe their response is Biblical.
I raised this subject in this thread because while the topic of the Rogue movie itself isn't significant, the attitudes and ramifications are. We can see the outworking of these attitudes in the situation with TC's church (how tragic it is that women's access to the Word of God is being restricted) and in Jonathan's blog. It saddens and frustrates me so much.

No matter which verses they use to justify their behaviour, an overall reading of scripture (which is the way you need to read it) proves them wrong.

It does. But you can't tell people what they don't want to hear.

Very true, unfortunately.

In message 1, I mentioned Craig S. Keener's excellent book, Paul, Women, and Wives: Marriage and Women's Ministry in the Letters of Paul, as a good resource for Christian reflection on this topic. At the time, I hadn't reviewed it; but I've written a review more recently. It's at this link, if anyone's interested: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show... .

Hello everyone. I see this thread is quite old, but I thought this would be the best place to say what I have to say since those who have responded here are interested in this topic.

A book recently came out called, The Making of Biblical Womanhood: How the Subjugation of Women Became Gospel Truth, and it blows up the idea of patriarchy and complementarianism in the Church. The author, Beth Allison Barr, clearly shows that the idea of male headship in the church has led to abuse of power within the home and the church.

Consider this from the books description,

"Biblical womanhood--the belief that God designed women to be submissive wives, virtuous mothers, and joyful homemakers--pervades North American Christianity. From choices about careers to roles in local churches to relationship dynamics, this belief shapes the everyday lives of evangelical women. Yet biblical womanhood isn't biblical..."

This book, made me realize, that not only do I need to maintain my belief that women can be teachers and preachers of God’s Word, I need to advocate for it. This is not just a female issue that only impacts women. This issue impacts every Christian and the effects, extend to all humans. Patriarchy negatively impacts women all over the world, Christian or not. The fact that most evangelical churches in America support complementarianism and patriarchy, is actually sinful. The American evangelical church needs to wake up.

The author clearly outlines the historical context to some of Paul's letters and shows that through much of Christian history (even in the early Church) women were in fact deacons, preachers, leaders, and teachers in Churches and the idea of male patriarchy in the church came later.

If you hold to complementarianism as Biblical, why not read this book, with an attitude of, What if I'm wrong? The women in your life will be glad you did.

And if you are interested in learning about Christian history and how Jesus himself supported women in ministry, and what true Biblical womanhood is all about, read this book.

Thanks for sharing Chad. I’ve added it to my book list. Looking forward to reading it.

Werner wrote: "In message 1, I mentioned Craig S. Keener's excellent book, Paul, Women, and Wives: Marriage and Women's Ministry in the Letters of Paul, as a good resource for Christian reflection o..."

I read your review of Keener's book. Excellent review. Going to try and get my hands on a copy of the book. Thanks!

Chad wrote: "I read your review of Keener's book. Excellent review."

Thank you, Chad! If you get a chance to read it, I hope it will be a blessing.

Janelle wrote: "I thought it odd too, Lynne. But after I posted I googled it and found out that there has been opposition to this movie from some Christians because of the gender roles it portrays.
I'm no feminis..."
Here we are, years later, and I'd like to re-visit this topic, if I may. As you see, the slam against white males as leaders (God ordained it that way, biblically) has gotten intense. I know someone who listens to commentaries about gender roles changing, especially in "super hero" genres. Now, today, the left has taken it too far. Batwoman, Marvel, etc. have decided to include lesbianism, along with the women being the leaders, the most powerful, emasculating the male characters. Like I said, the left sneaks in with just a little bit of anti-Christianity, and gradually grows the lies and the hate until it's a giant monstrosity.

Chad wrote: "Hello everyone. I see this thread is quite old, but I thought this would be the best place to say what I have to say since those who have responded here are interested in this topic.

A book recen..."
Women are not to teach men about the Bible. They can certainly teach other women, and children. Men, whose role has been greatly reduced to almost nothing, have lost their way, biblically, morally, and socially. Women are not to preach, and the likes of Joyce Meyer is a big example of what's wrong with that. Men have forgotten how to LOVE their wives, many of them, and either act like tyrants, or they allow their wife to rule the roost. Not many men treat their wives as Christ loves the church, which is why, I think , the outcry against submitting to husbands has come up. Society is so skewed now, so perverted in it's thinking, that the roles of men and women has for the most part been eradicated or made lukewarm and confusing. GOD is not the author of confusion, by the way.
Verses about husbands and wives you may wish to ponder: Ephesians Chapter 5
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Ephesians 5:22-24 - Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. (Read More...)

1 Peter 3:1-22 - Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; (Read More...)

1 Peter 3:7 - Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

Colossians 3:18 - Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.

Ephesians 5:22 - Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

1 Timothy 2:12 - But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Ephesians 5:21 - Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

Ephesians 5:25 - Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Ephesians 5:21-33 - Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. (Read More...)

Colossians 3:19 - Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.
IF you will calmly READ these, and allow the Holy Spirit to instruct you, you, too, will understand the reason for the problems in gender clarity today.
The men are as guilty as the women, and please remember this, for your OWN sake in eternity: Matthew Chapter 12

36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

God wants us to honor his divine design by honoring the principle of male headship in our homes and church families. The church is God’s family and household (1 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 3:6; Galatians 6:10). (desiringgod.org) Also, marriage is an example of our relationship to the Lord, and as such, even if we have unbelieving husbands or wives, wives are told to respect the husband, husbands are told to love the wife, and treat her as the weaker vessel, which is a loving, kind attitude, in my opinion.

I agree with Nancy, on everything save for one: "...white males as leaders (God ordained it that way, biblically)..."

God ordained men to be leaders, white or not.

Sutharsan wrote: "I agree with Nancy, on everything save for one: "...white males as leaders (God ordained it that way, biblically)..."

God ordained men to be leaders, white or not."
I didn't specifically mean white males, I was going off on another path, about the media making white men in general the target of ridicule and disrespect. Now, YES, ALL men, no matter their color or race, are, in God's rules, to be leaders of their family. Leaders like Jesus is, fair, loving, compassionate, well-versed in Scripture, not violent, not brawlers, no drunkards, and several other rules for Godly, biblical male leadership. So, that being said, I'm glad you agree with that. The bible clearly tells anyone how women should behave, how men should behave, how husbands and wives are to relate to each other, and how Christians in general, and specifically, are to be pure, Godly examples to "them who are without", i.e. to the lost.

I Timothy 2:12 was cited above, and it's obviously a Scripture verse that's highly important and relevant to this whole discussion. The link below is to an Internet article on that specific verse, which I found particularly helpful in understanding it: https://juniaproject.com/defusing-1-t... . The author is retired pastor Gail Wallace.

wow, I'm stunned that so many people still believe that men are the head of the household and women are not to lead men. I find that disgusting. I'm leading you all right now just by commenting :p
Study up on Corinthian slogans and how Paul quoted, then rebutted a lot of these. Also, stop taking the Bible so literally, legalisticly and as though it is dictated by God. It was NOT dictated and it is not infallible. It is inspired by God and designed to be wrestled with. See the context it was written in but realize we do not live in that cultural context today. Be relevant to the now. Follow the heart and spirit of Scripture to love others as yourselves, to forgive and be gracious instead of being judgemental.
I was raised in Australian Christianity and there is no shortage of women leaders "down under." One of my aunts was a pastor for years. The most recent church I was a member of was pastored by a brilliant woman. I, myself, have a degree in Theology from Tabor in South Australia and have preached sermons to men & women...

Elissa wrote: "It was NOT dictated and it is not infallible."

Relatively few Christians, either today or in past centuries, claim that the Bible was directly dictated by God, so that's something of a "straw man" in the current discussion. The overwhelming historical consensus among Christians distinguishes inspiration from dictation. But having engaged seriously with the Bible for about 50 years, I have to testify that I trust it as infallible (as Jesus stated in John 10:35, "the Scripture cannot be broken"). Human interpretations of it are certainly fallible; but I stand on the conviction that the Bible itself is not.

Elissa, we're fortunate to have some other members in this group who are also from Australia, and I have a bit of an Aussie connection myself. (My oldest daughter's husband was born and raised in Maryborough, Queensland, and that's where they live.) Barb and I have visited your country twice, and found it a beautiful and fascinating place!

oh lovely!! I actually just moved to North Carolina in June (my husband is American - actually he has dual citizenship now). Queensland is lovely, though I don't remember where Maryborough is. I hope your kids are able to visit you soon / vice versa. I hear lockdown this year was tough - at least where my family is in NSW

Werner wrote: "I Timothy 2:12 was cited above, and it's obviously a Scripture verse that's highly important and relevant to this whole discussion. The link below is to an Internet article on that specific verse, ..." This is a good and eye-opening article. Thanks for sharing.

Welcome to the U.S. (belatedly), Elissa! Hope you're getting settled in by now, and that you like it here.

Maryborough is on the Mary River, not right on the Fraser Coast but near it, and about 255 kilometers northwest of Brisbane. Their part of Queensland has had virtually no incidence of COVID, so lockdowns haven't been a big problem there. (They did have to quarantine at home for two weeks back in March 2020, after their most recent visit to us, just as a precautionary measure. The pandemic started getting ultra-serious just a couple of days before they were to start for home.)

Glad the article was helpful, Georgann!

Sunday school"
I've been in both male-female adult Sunday School classes, and in women-only. I prefer the male-female classes, simply because the men speak up more, and voice their views. The women just stay quiet.

Werner wrote: I have to testify that I trust it as infallible (as Jesus stated in John 10:35, "the Scripture cannot be broken"). Human interpretations of it are certainly fallible; but I stand on the conviction that the Bible itself is not."
I do also trust the King James bible as infallible, and I too know that human interpretations are sometimes skewed. If a person is not truly born again, their understanding of the pure Word of God is usually in error.

Elissa wrote: "wow, I'm stunned that so many people still believe that men are the head of the household and women are not to lead men. I find that disgusting.
..."
Why do you think the husband should not be head of the wife?

Tit.2
[1] But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:
[2] That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.
[3] The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
[4] That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
[5] To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
[6] Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.
[7] In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
[8] Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.

And, more clarification by God about the roles of husbands and wives: [21] Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
[22] Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
[23] For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
[24] Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
[25] Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
[26] That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
[27] That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
[28] So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
The husband has just as much responsibility to be obedient to God, and therefore, to be a good, Godly husband, as the wife does.

Nancy wrote: "...more clarification by God about the roles of husbands and wives: [21] Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God."

Ephesians 5:21, quoted above, provides essential context for understanding, not only all of the following verses in the chapter where Paul discusses the relationship of husbands and wives, but the first nine verses of chapter 6 as well, in which he discusses the relationships of parents and children, and masters and slaves. In this verse (rendered in the NIV as "Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ"), he's addressing the whole body of believers, men and women, parents and children, masters and slaves, rich and poor, Jews and Gentiles, and giving them all the same one-sentence command in a nutshell for how to relate to each other: submit to one another. That is, whatever our gender or status, our attitude is not to be, "I want MY way, and I'm jolly well gonna get it, so there!" Our attitude should be one of submission of our wants and whims to others' needs, of putting others ahead of ourselves, of embracing a servant's heart. If we genuinely embraced this teaching, with God's help, our common lives in our marriages, families and churches would be vastly the better for it.

The most basic building block of society is the relationship between a man, a woman and the children arising from that. Also known as the family. All the Abrahamic religions focus on this, as have all cultures globally for the entire history of humanity, until we saw the family come under attack in the 20th century.

I've been following closely the Woke v Conservative goings-on in the US from over here in South Australia (Elissa/Eady a relative of mine is a theology lecturer at Tabor believe it or not). Not only is the building block of society under attack, but the very concept of gender is too. What is the ultimate outcome of any society that fails to reproduce? Extinction in a single generation.
In this vein, I was encouraged to see your Supreme Court reversal of Roe v Wade after nearly 50 years. We are all made in God's image, and as image-bearers every human life is sacred from the moment of conception.

I am reminded that elections have consequences. While I do not for one second imagine Donald Trump to be a person worth emulating, I am thankful that God appointed him as President of the US in 2016 and that he in turn appointed three conservative justices to the USSC.