Moved to Wikipedia:Reference desk/Mathematics § Wikipedia on trial?
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
See also: Wikipedia:Wikipedia as a court source, fr:Wikipédia:Le Bistro/27 juillet 2022 § Article_de_recherche sur les juges irlandais et Wikipédia, and fr:Wikipédia:Le Bistro/5 février 2023 § Wikipédia et les juges irlandais An article for 4 February in The Guardian [1] links to a recent paper User-Generated Content Shapes Judicial Reasoning: Evidence From a Randomized Control Trial on Wikipedia. This is a final version of the paper reported in The Irish Times last year.[2] The authors, with help from their law students, generated 77 (out of around 80) articles linked at List of Irish Supreme Court cases, to see if actual text from WP (rather than just following the links) materially influenced Irish High Court decisions. Apart from the (perhaps deliberate) abysmal reffing standards of the articles, is anyone here competent to analyse their statistical methods? The 6-month period after the release of the articles on WP seems quite short compared to the 28 months previous. I have no expertise in this area. The histories of the articles are quite revealing. MinorProphet (talk) 00:53, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply] The Supreme Court of Ireland decisions are freely available here. MinorProphet (talk) 01:05, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply] This could be suitable for Wikipedia:Village pump rather than the reference desk as no question is asked? Apokrif (talk) 09:45, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply] There is a literal question: "is anyone here competent to analyse their statistical methods?" There is an obviously implied pragmatic question: "If so, are their methods appropriate?". (I think, though, that WP:RDMA (mathematics, geometry, probability, and statistics) is a better forum for this topic than WP:RDH (history, politics, literature, religion, philosophy, law, finance, economics, art, and society).)  --Lambiam 10:09, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply] I tried to read the article but got stuck on their linear regression model introduced in Section 4.1. Quoting from the article: To estimate the magnitude of this effect, we employ the following linear regression model: ${\displaystyle {\textit {casecites}}_{ijt}=\beta _{0}+\beta _{1}{\textit {Wiki}}_{\,ij}\times {\textit {After}}_{\,t}+\beta _{2}{\textit {Wiki}}_{\,ij}+\beta _{3}{\textit {After}}_{\,t}+\pi _{j}+\varepsilon _{ijt}~~~~~~(1)}$ where ${\displaystyle i}$ indexes cases, ${\displaystyle j}$ stratification blocks, and t months. So ${\displaystyle {\textit {Wiki}}_{\,ij}}$ and ${\displaystyle {\textit {After}}_{\,t}}$ are, apparently, real-valued variables, but how are their values defined? Or are these the parameters to be estimated? Then the model is not linear.     The relatively short duration of six months (or seven? I did not immediately spot the upload date(s) but various figures with a time scale, such as Figure 2, have seven ticks for the "post-treatment" period) should not be an issue, as long as the number of data points collected is high enough. More than 7,200 observed citations, as they state, should be ample for the purpose of hypothesis testing. It is somewhat ironic that our article Statistics is among their cited references.  --Lambiam 14:51, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply] Thank you as usual for your thoughtful replies. The suggested RefDesk is probably a better place for this question, and I will copy it over there: I am no angel, and as a mathematical/statistical fool I fear to rush in and tread the hallowed halls of WP:RDMA. The possibilities for deliberately introducing weasel words into apparently innocent articles to influence legal decisions seem manifold. MinorProphet (talk) 16:00, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

So recently, there are studies where people in the U.S. are relocating to. The #1 state people be moving out of, are California, then New York, then Illinois. The top states where people are relocating to, are Florida, then Texas. And the Carolinas. This data is made possible by the U.S. post office. When people change their permanent mailing address, the U.S. post office are updated, so they use this analytical/marketing data, for 2022.

I'd like to know if anyone does this for banks? Starting last March, Fed. Reserve raises interest rates 8 times a year, and a lot of smaller banks are offering amazing interest rates in savings and CDs, whereas big banks aren't. Then I wonder if anyone keeps track of bank migrations? Is this data even recorded? Cuz I suspect bigger banks are having their money transferred to smaller banks. Not often we are in this economic environment and opportunity. When I transfer money from bank A to bank B, and bank B knew it came from bank A, is that recorded somewhere so people have this marketing data? Some banks are also privately own, so I guess, those don't make that info public. Thanks. 67.165.185.178 (talk) 20:00, 5 February 2023 (UTC).[reply]

People basically rarely switch banks; and do so far less today than they did in the past, largely owing to the prevalence of online banking. Many people bank with companies that don't have any local branches anyways, and many people never go into a brick-and-mortar building for banking. This 2022 Forbes article and This 2021 article from the American Bankers Association and This 2019 blog post from LendingTree.com all bear this out; people tend to be very sticky and loyal to their current banks; most don't shop around features, and are usually satisfied leaving their money in whatever bank it currently is in. Those references do have some data for why people switch banks when they do, however. --Jayron32 18:25, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Somewhat contradicting to your argument of on-line banking is, people aren't gonna switch banks to on-line banking, but your logic does go through if it is their 1st bank. So that would mean older people don't switch to on-line banking. And, I dunno how relevant this is, but my point would not be people completely closing their bank, but still transferring money over, and leaving a minimum in their old bank to avoid fees. It's also a pain to talk in person on closing your account which is why you transfer out 95% of the money instead. As for people that do switch or transfer banks, is there a strong correlation, usually lower to higher interest rates? 67.165.185.178 (talk) 00:44, 7 February 2023 (UTC).[reply]

Yes, the sources do bear that out; indeed one states that something like 96 million Americans (between 1/4 and 1/3 of the country) has never switched banks. --Jayron32 14:26, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also I would say the articles from 2019-2021 may not be what I'm lookin at since this was before interest rates have risen. I found an article that people are more likely to move to a bank that holds their 401(k). Or at least, specifically with Fidelity. https://www.wsj.com/articles/more-people-bank-with-companies-that-hold-their-401-k-s-11675171229 "The typical checking account pays so little interest that more people are moving their day-to-day banking into their brokerage accounts to get a better return on their cash. At Fidelity, the nation’s largest 401(k) plan provider, there has been a double-digit percentage increase in the number of people using cash-management accounts over the last three years, according to a spokeswoman. These money-market accounts let customers earn competitive interest on their cash without sacrificing many of the key features of traditional banking." 67.165.185.178 (talk) 22:19, 7 February 2023 (UTC).[reply]

I know that a "sample of one" is of little value but sometimes anecdotes shed some light on motivations. I am now 70 years old and first started banking at the long defunct Hibernia Bank in San Francisco about 50 years ago. They gave me pretty decent service until I got married in 1981, and I then switched to Bank of America, which was then a historic bank founded in San Francisco in 1902 and doing business only in California at that time, and which my San Franciso born wife was already doing business with. She wanted to consolidate bank accounts and we are still married. BofA subsequently got bought out, moved their headquarters to North Carolina, and became a nationwide bank with negligible connection to its San Francisco roots. When the terrible recession of 2007 to 2009 hit, we were really irritated with big banks and considered switching but didn't. To be frank, I do not care at all about minor differences in interest rates. My bank accounts are not for making money. They are for managing my liquid funds with an institution that provides me and my business convenience, reliability, excellent security and friendly appreciation for decades of doing business with them. If they see something wrong, which is rare, they call me immediately and ask intelligent questions indicating that they trust me not to be a scammer, and then promptly solve the problem, thanking me for 50 years of doing business with them. I do not correct them that it is actually my wife who has been doing business with them for 50 years, and it has only been 42 years for me. Our long term investments are with other institutions for entirely different reasons. I have used PayPal for processing credit card payments to my small business for over 15 years, again because of reliabilty, trust, low fees and prompt transfer of funds. To them, I am a very old and reliable client after 15 plus years, which is a long time in the digital world. Cullen328 (talk) 09:41, 9 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

How is this source?^[1] -- Karsan Chanda (talk) 02:26, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• On the one hand, Business Studies is a peer-reviewed journal published by the University of Calcutta. [3] On the other hand, this particular article includes claims such as "sorcerers and black magic practitioners cursed the village" and "This village is cursed. The villagers abandoned the village in 1800. ... The villagers left the place leaving a timeless spell." Due to the article's presentation of folklore and myth as though it were history, I'd recommend that it not be used for historical claims. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 04:00, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

How are its other sources? -- Karsan Chanda (talk) 04:08, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note. Crossposted at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard § Draft:Chanda dynasty.  --Lambiam 08:37, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Lambiam: Is it wrong to do so? -- Karsan Chanda (talk) 08:53, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Somewhat. See WP:CROSS-POST. Shantavira|^{feed me} 09:12, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Florence Martin, the stage & silent film actress, not Florence Martin, the physicist and philanthropist.)

This came up because of the photo shown here. I'm a little surprised we don't have an article on her, but sources seem just skimpy enough that that makes sense. Anyway, I'd like to do at least a Wikidata item. IMDB shows her as born July 2, 1902, and starting her film career in 1919, but this photo dates from no later than March 1916. She sure looks more than 13 years old here, no? And while the eponymous Peg is a teenager, the plot of Peg O' My Heart calls for her to get married in the end, hard to imagine casting someone quite that young. Further, File:The Town Crier, v.11, no.10, Mar. 4, 1916 - DPLA - 410be476b7c8cada769dd7865e974e54 (page 14).jpg indicates that she had already played this leading role for a year in Boston. Her face seems to match other images in Commons:Category:Florence Martin (compare, for example, File:Florence Martin - Mar 1920 EH.jpg). I'm wondering if the birth date is wrong, or maybe it could be a different actress with the same name and a rather similar appearance? - Jmabel | Talk 05:59, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The simplest explanation is that IMDB is inaccurate. Happens all the time! There's some newspapers.com hits coming up for a stage actress in the Boston area by that name. Here's of the earlier ones I found, from 1907. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 06:08, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Firefangledfeathers: All I get from your link is "This clipping has been marked as not public. If this is your clipping, please sign in to view it." - Jmabel | Talk 16:10, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Jmabel, fixed. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 16:20, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

& "who has been but two seasons on the stage" to boot! Meaning she was on the stage in 1905. - Jmabel | Talk 16:32, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

So at this point, the question is: two actresses of this name, or an error in IMDB? I agree that the latter seems more likely, but I'd still love to see something more solid. Note also that the Boston Globe calls here a "California girl" and IMDB says born in Chicago. - Jmabel | Talk 16:34, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In former decades it was common for entertainers (and their publicity agents, etc.), particularly females, to pretend to be younger than they were so as to continue to be cast in roles for younger characters rather than be replaced by younger rivals. The financial considerations could be substantial, so there was strong motivation for this, and before centralised record keeping (let alone the internet) it was not easy to refute. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.2195} 90.221.194.253 (talk) 17:30, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

From 1 January 2022 to today, what are specific instances of powerful and/or privileged individuals getting their human rights violated, other than the seizures of the assets of Russian oligarchs and the 2023 East Jerusalem synagogue shooting. By human rights, I mean all the ones listed in the Articles 3 to 29 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. It could be from anywhere in the world. StellarHalo (talk) 07:21, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What are you talking about? What makes you think that the seizure of Russian oligarchs' assets constitutes a violation of their human rights? What makes you think that the people killed in that shooting were powerful and privileged? Your question makes no sense. --Viennese Waltz 08:39, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

UDHR Article 17: No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property. My definition of "privileged" is rather broad especially when comparing the status of the victims to that of the perpetrator and there are many types of privileges. Anyway, I am requesting assistance in finding instances of a specific type of event from a given timeframe. StellarHalo (talk) 08:59, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

On second thought, ignore the struck parts. StellarHalo (talk) 09:46, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Your presumption that the Russian oligarchs obtained their assets legitimately probably could be argued against. People in general are not allowed to keep property that they get through illegitimate means.--Jayron32 14:52, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I never presumed that any of their assets were obtained legitimately. Whether or not any of those were legitimately obtained is not relevant especially compared to the lack of due process from national governments that up until the invasion, were not really concerned about the issue of legitimacy of their money to begin with. There are good reasons why the question of legality has came up repeatedly in both the US and Europe regarding the seizures and possible sales of these assets. StellarHalo (talk) 21:02, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

How is the seizure of their property "arbitrary"? --Golbez (talk) 17:05, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That depends on what arbitrarily means in each case. What comes to mind is:

On 9 January 2023, Nasr Azadani was sentenced to 26 years in prison, 16 for the crime of partaking in enmity against God, and 10 years for 2 other crimes committed during the protests.

supposing the charges against him are false.

On 10 January 2022, the military court in Myanmar sentenced Suu Kyi to an additional four years in prison on a number of charges including "importing and owning walkie-talkies" and "breaking coronavirus rules". The trials, which are closed to the public, the media, and any observers, were described as a "courtroom circus of secret proceedings on bogus charges" by the deputy director for Asia of Human Rights Watch

There are further sentences.

2022 Russian businessmen suspicious deaths if they are intentional.

--Error (talk) 16:54, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You can also check 2022 and 2023. Privileged people are more probable to appear there than nobodies. For example:

January 23

A coup d'état in Burkina Faso removes president Roch Kaboré from power. The Burkinabé military cites the government's failure to contain activities of Islamist militants within the country as a reason for the coup.

--Error (talk) 01:56, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Is Alan Singh Chanda the correct name as the builder of Amber Fort?^[1] -- Karsan Chanda (talk) 10:43, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The Wikipedia article Amber Fort claims it was Raja Man Singh, but the article about him does not mention him building it. --Jayron32 14:11, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Jayron32: You should watch it again. -- Karsan Chanda (talk) 16:20, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Watch what again? --Jayron32 17:23, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If someone can direct me to sources discussing the history of the Jenin refugee camp between its establishment in 1953 and the Second Intifada, that would be helpful. The ⬡ Bestagon ^T/_C 13:58, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I found quite a lot (too many to copy over) by using google scholar, which you can set to a date range. Setting it to 1953-1999 brings up loads of studies written during your time period. Have a look: [4]

If you can’t access any of these articles, you can request them from WP:RX. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 18:33, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Father: Kazuo Baba, died in November 1968; mother: Mitsu Baba, died in July 1971; older brother: Shoichi Baba, killed in war at Bougainville on February 6, 1943; older sisters: Yoshi and Aiko. Please, can you help me to find these information: for his parents, the place and date of birth, the place, day and cause of death, and his mother's maiden name; for his brother the place and date of birth; for his sisters all about their birth and death. Thank you very much. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.139.161 (talk) 16:57, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please, someone can help me? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.138.25 (talk) 14:54, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This sort of information is not likely to be published so that Wikipedia editors can access it, and if it is, it would likely be in Japanese-language sources, which very few Reference desk editors on this English-language Wikipedia would be able to read.

You would do better to ask at the Japanese Wikipedia, or to engage the services of an amateur or professional Genealogist, who specialises in such research. I hope this helps. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.198.141.181 (talk) 17:44, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Why did William Berry choose Camrose for his title? I am not aware of any link between him and Camrose, tho' according to the ODNB his mother was from Pembroke Dock. Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 21:27, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

According to [5]: "William was duly raised to the peerage by Baldwin in 1929 and took title Baron Camrose after the name of the Pembrokeshire village where is father had been born." Other sources [6] confirm the birthplace for John Mathias Berry. --Amble (talk) 07:29, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Amble: Thank you, that makes sense. DuncanHill (talk) 08:47, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Look at this:

https://www.longhu.ml/ProductDetail.aspx?iid=229662446&pr=58.88

Read the numerical sight-singing article. The above link's numbers are wrong because the song (assuming the starting note is C) is in the key of F, not C. Do some musicians follow the wrong rule when they use numerical sight-singing?? Georgia guy (talk) 15:12, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No, it's fine. The only difference between the key of C and the key of F is that the C has a "B" note in it, while the key of F has a "Bb" in it. Since the melody of amazing grace doesn't have that note in it either way, which is to say it has neither the seventh degree of the key of C nor the third fourth degree of the key of F, it actually doesn't matter for the melody whether it is in the key of C or F. Look at the numbers in the link: No 7. So, you can notate it either way and get the correct melody. It's perfectly fine. I do agree that "F" feels like a better key because the song "lands" on "F"; it's where the melody feels resolved (the final syllable "see" lands there), but from a notational perspective, the file you put above doesn't miss any notes. It literally plays the correct melody. So it gets the job done. --Jayron32 15:34, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The third note of the F major scale is A, which the song clearly has. Georgia guy (talk) 15:40, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A is also in the C major scale. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 15:44, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For clarification, my comment showed an error in Jayron32's answer that the link is fine. Georgia guy (talk) 15:47, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have now corrected that. However, it doesn't change the point of my response to you. The link is still fine. The point is that the only note of difference is B/Bb between the two scales. This melody has neither. I conceded that the song is best described as being in "F" for the melody shown because that's where the "home" is, where the song feels most rested. However, there are different reasons for notating a song certain ways, and the link you provided is basically designed to help little kids pluck out the tune without knowing much, if any, music theory or notation. If I glue a big fat "1" sticker on the "C" key on my piano, and number the rest of the notes in the key of C, the kid playing that will play the exactly correct melody for the song. So, it works. Things like "what key is this in" is only mostly an academic exercise; it helps musicians who know some theory. The link you gave is designed to help a little kid plunk out the correct melody. Which it does just fine. --Jayron32 15:52, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Can you make the table in the Numerical sight-singing article more flexible when it comes to the statement that sometimes even if a song is in F the column on the right of a table is sometimes used as the table says (as opposed to the more natural rule for such songs that F is 1, G is 2, etc.)?? Georgia guy (talk) 15:57, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No, I cannot. Can you make your understanding of musical notation more flexible, so that you aren't always trying to force it to be more rigid than it actually is? --Jayron32 16:23, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please mark any false information in the following:

• There are 12 different musical keys, each one has its own tonic.
• Transposing a song from one key to another will simply change its pitch; it won't change how the melody sounds assuming you obey the key signature correctly and use notes not in it only if the song has such notes.
• "Amazing Grace", in C major, starts with the notes "G-C-E-C-E-D-C-A-G".
• Numerical sight-singing is a key-generic way to refer to a song's tune. It allows one to name a song's tune without specifying the key. (In other words, the numbers 1-7 can be converted to a note's letter name by specifying a key. In the key of C, this means 1 is C, 2 is D, 3 is E, and so on.)
• Using numerical sight-singing, Amazing Grace would start out as 5-1-3-1-3-2-1-6-5.

Georgia guy (talk) 16:33, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Everything you say above is at once correct and irrelevant. The page you linked to is not trying to be Numerical sight-singing. It's just someone who numbered the lowest note in the song "1" and numbered the rest of the notes diatonically, so that they can teach a kid to play the melody on a piano without first teaching them all of music theory. --Jayron32 17:50, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also, on your last one, if you started on 5, the numbers would need to go 5-8-10-8-10-9-6-5, because if you start at 5 and go down to 1, you're now an octave too low. The melody goes up, not down, in tone. You're going UP from C to F, (or if you want, from G to C) not down. Also also, the page you linked is not Numerical sight-singing, but just someone using numbers to teach kids to play a piano. --Jayron32 17:56, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) Whatever note you start on, the song is in the major key of the second note. In terms of solfege, it starts with sol do. While the seventh of the scale does not occur in the pentatonic first voice, it will appear in any reasonable harmonization, and probably already when a second voice is added. From a didactic point too, it is better to start with 5 1.  --Lambiam 16:36, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What do the colors red and blue that you use stand for?? Do they have any official use in writing a song's melody with numerical sight-singing?? Georgia guy (talk) 16:38, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No, I was just copying the colours of the numbers in the image on that website.  --Lambiam 17:03, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Now, let me see what the one statement that Jayron32 wants me to include as part of my knowledge. The best answer I can think of is:

Most preschoolers don't understand the meaning of "we can't call C 1 in this song because it is not in the key of C". They understand C as 1 as being valid for any song that uses only white keys on the piano even if not in the key of C major. Georgia guy (talk) 16:51, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Fairly sure most preschoolers don't understand any such thing. They probably have almost zero understanding of what a key is, what C is other than a letter of the alphabet and what the difference is between the black keys and white keys other than colours. I'm not even convinced most preschoolers are even aware that the black keys and white keys are in the same location on every piano or heck even that a piano has black and white keys. Nil Einne (talk) 17:11, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Musical key is not an immutable law of the universe; it's a notational convenience so that musical ideas can be effectively communicated to musicians; it's also not even useful or relevant for all types of music (and not even for all types of Western music, check out Giant Steps (composition), or google "What key is Sweet Home Alabama in, or in the music of Arnold Schoenberg). Let's get to the key of Amazing Grace. If we're trying to communicate using a musical staff, I might include the "one flat" key signature, since as I said, the melody does have the sense of landing on "F" as its "place of rest". If we're trying to give a bunch of jazz musicians a key center to improvise over, I'll tell them the key of "F" so that they can predict the changes and choose appropriate licks and chords and musical ideas to inform their improvisation. If I'm trying to get a 4 year old to pluck out the melody of Amazing Grace on a piano, I'm going to put some numbers or colors on the keys, and I'm going to number all of the notes, and tell them to play along with the numbers. It doesn't matter in that context what the "key" is. That's why I said it was "fine". The purpose of a key is to communicate with the performer something about the music they are about to perform. If I'm communicating to a small child, they don't really care what the key is. The numbers serve the purpose fine. Even moreso that "C" is the lowest note in the song. Make the lowest note "1" is probably better for a small child. After all, if you don't do that, they'll play the wrong "C" and the song will sound off to them. The first note of the song is the lowest one. That's why it is numbered 1. If you want to number "F" the lowest, you'd need at lot more than 8 numbers. --Jayron32 17:42, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The concept of key in Western music is not a "notational convenience"; it exists independent of notation. Some successful songs have been written by musicians who never managed to learn music notation, but these songs are still in a key when they play them on a guitar. The key signatures of a piece in F major and one in D minor are the same.  --Lambiam 00:11, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sort of; I probably should have said that key signature is a notational convenience. Key, however, is still just something made up for Western music to communicate an idea to musicians. Even if not written and communicated verbally, it isn't anything inherent to the notes themselves, it's a shorthand way to tell the musicians a lot of information about a piece of music because those musicians were trained in the same conventions. When I say something is in "the Key of F", I am telling the musicians who are playing the piece which specific scales and chords are used to build the piece, what the chord functions of specific chords are going to be, what the "place of rest" is terms of melody and chord progression, etc. etc. There are other, less efficient ways to learn the music in question, though. For example, I can just watch someone else play the piece, and they can explain what fingerings they are using and what specific stings on the guitar they are picking, etc. Key is not strictly required, it's just something that was collectively decided on as a way to communicate. The point is that key is only a means of communicating an idea, and not even the only way. Often, key is a useful way to do so; but not always. And as I noted above, it isn't even universal. There are pieces of music for which the key is ambiguous. --Jayron32 12:47, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Or non-existent. See atonality. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:11, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I think I did mention Schoenberg above. --Jayron32 13:08, 9 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Scales and tones too are just something made up for music; see e.g. portamento. There are pieces of music in which tones are non-existent.  --Lambiam 21:02, 9 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Of course; there are entire musical traditions built on percussion. --Jayron32 12:19, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Purvanchal and Awadh are two regions of India with two maps not clear. If you see Purvanchal map and Awadh map you see they have overlapping borders. Since I want to use them within Wikivoyage, do you know which one is correct? Codas (talk) 17:11, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The Purvanchal map is claimed to represent the situation in the present day, and is presumably legally correct, although the article discusses a movement to secede from the State of Uttar Pradesh, which might involve some territorial disputes.

The Awadh map is also "modern", but the article is mostly about it as a Historical region which, as far as I can tell from the article (and I might be being dense), has little autonomous identity within modern Uttar Pradesh.

So it's entirely possible that both maps, though contradictory, are "correct" in a particular context. Others with more expertise in Indian history and politics need to research this for you further. One thing is certain, neither map should be used to support any currrent political discussions. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.198.141.181 (talk) 18:04, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The question about the Viscountcy of Camrose above reminded me to ask this question, which I've posed on Talk:Earl Winterton without any success.

In 1761, Edward Turnour (or Garth-Turnour, born Edward Garth) was created Baron Winterton, of Gort in the County of Galway, and in 1766 and he was created Viscount Turnour, of Gort in the County of Galway, and Earl Winterton, in the County of Galway, all in the Peerage of Ireland. (The titles are currently held by his descendant, the 8th Earl.)

Where did the name of the Winterton peerages come from? Despite the territorial designation, it doesn't seem to be a place in Co. Galway (list of towns and villages in County Galway, list of townlands of County Galway; and in any case if it were a place one would usually expect "Earl of Winterton" rather than "Earl Winterton", albeit this is not a hard-and-fast rule) and it doesn't seem to be a surname in the history of the 1st Earl's family. There have been no other "Winterton" peerages to which reference could have been being made.

I thought it might be an English place name (as non-Irish place names were sometimes used in Irish titles, like Earl of Ranfurly and Earl of Mexborough), but there don't seem to be any Wintertons near the family's then seat in West Sussex either.

All of the peerage reference books I can find just note that the 1st Earl was created Baron Winterton and then Earl Winterton without giving any explanation as to why this title was chosen. It is particularly odd because obvious choices were available, like the 1st Earl's paternal surname (Garth), the surname of his maternal inheritance (Turnour), the name of his inherited seat (Shillinglee) and various places near there (like Haslemere).

Any ideas? Proteus (Talk) 13:38, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Your guess that it might be from an English place-name is right. An 1829 source says that Winterton-on-Sea in Norfolk "gives the title of earl...to the family of Turnour, who possess considerable property here". --Antiquary (talk) 16:04, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much! I have added this to Earl Winterton with that reference. Proteus (Talk) 16:24, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently he promised not to stand for Bramber if he got an Irish Viscountcy. DuncanHill (talk) 16:44, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

How is this source? -- Karsan Chanda (talk) 13:16, 9 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In general, questions about the appropriateness of sources are best directed to Wikipedia:Reliable source noticeboard, but since you asked here this time, I'll give my response. I assume, based on your prior thread, you are asking if the source is sufficient for establishing the name of the person who was responsible for building the Amber Fort. Probably not; a source's reliability depends in part on the expertise of the source for the topic in question. I would expect a source written by someone who was a recognized expert in Indian History, and it would probably have extensive writing on the construction of the fort itself. A single passing mention of the fort in a paper about an entirely unrelated topic is probably not that useful. Instead, you should be looking for books and journal articles written by historians who do research in, and write about, the place and time in question. I hope that helps! --Jayron32 13:26, 9 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A pretty much perfect answer. Hope not to annoying to add this [7], an example of a paper published by Proceedings of the Indian History Congress that should fulfil these criteria. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 16:30, 9 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. I recall reading an essay about a speaker who was invited to attend a debate, and afterward he was congratulating the winner on her argumentative skill. She then admitted that the position she successfully defended was the opposite of the one she believed. The speaker then got offended because the value of argumentation was perverted, should be used to pursue the truth, avoid sophistry, etc. It went on from there.

I likely first encountered this essay in an "Introduction to Philosophy" style textbook. I'm thinking the author was someone like Peter Singer or Bertrand Russell or Richard Dawkins or Stephen Jay Gould or someone like this, but I can't find it anywhere. Any help? Thanks. Llamabr (talk) 16:09, 9 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I can't identify the essay, but I think the winner's approach was justified. If Speaker A cannot prevail against the arguments of Speaker B even when Speaker B secretly agrees with A, then A needs to improve their argumentative skills and/or find better arguments. In the long run this will help to support the point of view (which may be "the truth", or not) that A and (secretly) B share. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.198.141.181 (talk) 20:25, 9 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Being able to articulate the best arguments for the opposition and against your own position allows you to form a stronger, more informed opinion.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 23:59, 9 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. I went to an all-boys school. We regularly had formal debates with our "sister" school. We were given the topic (let's say abortion) beforehand to prepare our arguments but the for/against choice was decided by coin toss just before the debate started. 41.23.55.195 (talk) 08:05, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the three responses. The main arguments here are that B should try to have a stronger argument than A, that one should understand one's opponent's position, and that there is rhetorical skill to be learned in defending a false position. No doubt there is some truth to each, though to be fair to the original author, I didn't present the full argument (mainly because I can't remember it, which is why I'm looking for it), so it's difficult to object on the basis of my incomplete summary. But I believe he may reply that what we should seek is the truth, not "winning" debate, that simply being more persuasive is not the same as being right, and if studying argumentation is valuable it is so because it is a tool for discovering the truth, rather than an end unto itself. I certainly appreciate the feedback, though if anyone comes across the essay I mean I would appreciate the opportunity to read it again. Llamabr (talk) 12:37, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

While I agree with what you say, I would observe that if something is factually true, there ought to be unassailable arguments supporting its truth. If there are not, we may be in the realm of subjective and perhaps unexamined assumptions, and unagreed definitions. Sorry I can't help with identifying the actual essay in question. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.198.141.181 (talk) 15:54, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Your question seemed to frame this as a competition and not as a true debate. In such situations, it is a learning exercise. Which you admitted was a valid use, so I'm not sure what the problem is. If anyone can identify the essay in question, I would like to read it as well. Perhaps that would clarify the issue. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 16:05, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also, there is the faulty premise that there must be objective truths in all matters. That the world is round, that the sky is blue, that the moon is not made of green cheese, these are statements for which the truth value is binary; it either is or isn't true. There are issues which are so complex, that which cannot be statement to be definitively true in all contexts, or other matters for which it is only a matter of taste or opinion. We can debate the merits of pineapple on pizza all day, but there's no objectively true answer to that one. Debate, as a means of rhetoric, is not about proving things that are objectively true, it's about convincing people of the merits of a position for which there is not a verifiable true answer. It makes no sense to have a debate over things for which the truth value is well established. I can say "It's 27 degrees celsius outside right now". We can have a debate over it, but that's silly: We can also just check the thermometer. However, if we say "Society would be better if richer people paid more taxes", well, that's a complex problem that doesn't have a clear answer, which makes it a nice topic for debate. If we say "Balsamic vinaigrette is the best dressing for a salad", that's a matter of taste, and thus is a nice topic for debate. If we say "Oxygen has a molar mass of about 16 grams per mole", that's an easily verifiable statement, and the answer is likely an objective truth, so it isn't a good debatable topic. The premise that we use debate to find truths doesn't bear out. We use debate to convince people that one position or another is in some way better, even though we have no way to prove it one way or the other, either because the issue is so complex that a simple answer doesn't suffice (a plurium interrogationum) or it's a matter of taste only (De gustibus non est disputandum). Debate only works in places where there is room for nuance. --Jayron32 16:42, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In particular, "winning" a debate may be due, not to having the better arguments, but to presenting arguments that conform better to the prejudices of the jury. Surely, though, someone holding the conviction that studying argumentation is valuable because it is a tool for discovering the truth, is well aware of the fact that argumentative skills are often wielded to win a debate rather than to seek the truth. If they respond as if surprised, the surprise has to be feigned.  --Lambiam 22:44, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks again, everyone, for your replies. It's hard to avoid straw man arguments against the original argument, as we havn't read it, and as I can't identify the particular essay, I'm also not defending it well. In any case, I suspect it was a modern day Protagoras dialog, critical of sophistry in favor of philosophy. I don't necessarily think this discussion can help but to derail further without studying the original argument, which I'll post if my research turns it up. Thanks again. Llamabr (talk) 12:25, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In the film A Good Marriage there is a funeral, and at the graveside where you would expect to hear "in sure and certain hope of the Resurrection to eternal life" and all that, the priest says something along the lines of "the good works of his honest life recommend him to thee at the Day of Resurrection". What sort of priest would say a thing like that? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 00:30, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What denomination is the priest in that film? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:59, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Is the question I am asking. DuncanHill (talk) 05:21, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I thought you were asking in general. I haven't seen the film in question. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:32, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm asking what denomination or sect would include such a thing at the graveside. DuncanHill (talk) 11:46, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Various subtitles suggest it is "In the sure belief that the good works of his honest life will recommend him to thee on the day of judgment." Nil Einne (talk) 06:22, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• So, what makes the question hard to answer are two factors: 1) There are many denominations for which there is not a formal, prescribed, script that the ministers of that denomination are expected to read, and many denominations have ministers that speak extemporaneously and so it would be impossible to nail down a specific denomination just from a sentence said at a funeral. 2) This is a work of fiction, and not a documentary, and as such, there is no requirement that the author of the work of fiction is even trying to adhere to reality that closely. They may have (in fact likely did) just made up something that sounds plausible, rather than trying to accurately document a religious ceremony. They are writers after all, not sociologists. --Jayron32 12:11, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And they may have deliberately created a form of words used by no actual denomination to avoid possible offense being taken. {The poster formely known as 87.81.230.195} 51.198.141.181 (talk) 15:56, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A Google search for ["we commit thy servant" "on the day of judgment" -"Anderson"] has 0 ghits,^[8] which IMO shows that the formula was made up by the script writers. The sort of priest that would say a thing like that is prone to theological lapsus: it should be either "we commit Thy servant N.N. to Thee", or "we commit Thy servant's body to the ground".  --Lambiam 22:28, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It was the good works that bothered me theologically. I'm sure no Reformed priest would mention them during the burial of the dead. DuncanHill (talk) 00:00, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What about a pastor from the Methodist movement? Our article Justification (theology) states: "For Methodists along with other groups belonging to the Holiness Movement, salvation can be lost with the loss of faith or through sinning (cf. conditional security)." And the article section Good works § Methodist Churches states: "John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist Churches, taught that the keeping of the moral law contained in the Ten Commandments,^[17] as well as engaging in the works of piety and the works of mercy, were "indispensable for our sanctification".^[18]"  --Lambiam 09:54, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(EC) While I assume the OP is aware of this, just a note for anyone who hasn't seen the movie and hasn't read the plot summary, the 'good works' etc part actually fits into a key plot element. The decedent was actually a rapist and serial killer. However this isn't and won't be known to most people including obviously the priest and nearly everyone at the funeral, his wife secretly murdered him after uncovering his crimes. Although she isn't the only one to know as a retired detective had also correctly deduced he was the murderer, as well as the fact she had murdered him. It's mentioned very near the end by this detective that she'll have to put up with their children's fond memories about him etc (including I guess his good works), telling them to grandkids, and maybe even reminisce herself on occasion. I.E. there's a reason the script writers may have wanted something like the line even if it wasn't theologically accurate for most flavours of Christianity. Nil Einne (talk) 11:21, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If I understand aright, Quakers hold that meritorious Unbelievers may be admitted to the Kingdom of Heaven; furthermore, they abjure formulaic pronouncements. If I understand aright. Doug butler (talk) 11:17, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

1) At resource exchange one needs to give page numbers. Hopefully following book is supposed to have some references to women cycling in Arab world. Myself could not get adequate preview @ google books. But google books shares different preview to everyone so some else may help me out in informing, What this book says about women cycling in Arab world and page or chapter numbers. I am likely to use in the article (Women's) Bicycling in Islam .

• Amara, M.. Sport, Politics and Society in the Arab World. United Kingdom, Palgrave Macmillan UK, 2011.

2) I do have one US citation saying ".. Taqlid one form of Islamic jurisprudence, inferred that, " Quran prohibits women from riding horses, horses are like bicycles in that you have to mount them, Automobiles, in turn, are like bicycles in that they are a form of transportation. .." I am also looking for citation suggestions either concurring this line or otherwise.

Bookku (talk) 09:15, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

User:Bookku, there is a preview of that book here, also Sport, Politics and Society in the Middle East (2019), but a Google search for your quote didn't find anything. We also have an article; Bicycling in Islam. Alansplodge (talk) 16:57, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Alansplodge The second one is available on archives.org Since citation is longer I did not quote earlier. It's by Christopher Stuart, since it is from academic publication most probably shall count as RS. Similar info seems available on google search non-RS. I am looking for preferably one more RS sources that shall help confirm and lesser disputation later. Bookku (talk) 13:31, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Title: "From "mother of the world" to the "third world" and back again, The harmonization cycle between Islam and the global economy Author:Christopher Stuart Work:Editor: Backer, Larry Catá (2007) Carolina Academic Press Harmonizing Law in an Era of Globalization Convergence, Divergence, and Resistance. page 285 ,

Bookku (talk) 13:31, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I was reading some British Coulmbian newspapers from the early 1900's when I saw a few mentions of a Kamloops newspaper called the Kamloops Standard. I thought it would be digitized like many other newspapers but I could find almost no mention of this paper online save a few books citing it as one of their sources or quotes. I did find this article, https://www.newspapers.com/clip/118345778/ which contains many quotes meaning the author had access to some papers. This article,https://www.newspapers.com/clip/118345849/ here mentions a Kamloops Standard although only from 1914-1924 which cuts out the first fifteen years or so since its founding in 1897.[9] Are there any libraries I could contact who might have copies? It seems like it was a fairly big paper given its frequent mentions in its contemporaries pages but I just cannot find anything. Thanks in advance. Gandalf the Groovy (talk) 13:23, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

here is the contact information for the Kamloops Library, it seems to be the main branch of the Thompson-Nicola Regional District Library System. I suspect that's going to be the best bet. If that doesn't work, the University of British Columbia Library is one of the largest research libraries in Canada, that may be a good place to try next. --Jayron32 13:28, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

UBC Library definitely has, or at least in 1974 had copies of the paper. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 23:20, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

seems like they still do Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 23:22, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As does University of Winnipeg (1897-1916), and Thompson Rivers University Library (1897-1910), and the Canadian archives (seemingly Dec. 1, 1898 - June 23, 1916) Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 23:27, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If you have specific issues of the paper you are looking for, WP:REX would likely be able to assist. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 23:28, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Turkish media has covered an awardee "Sema Gür – Turkey – cycling advocate for women" but other than Turkish media I could just get this blog note . Many times local media of any country can boast things a little more than what they are so wish to confirm from non Turkish source. Is there any non Turkish RS available, may be in archives? or Ref from award giving organization it self for better clarity and confirmation/ verification. Bookku (talk) 17:41, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Here is an image of the award received by Pınar Pinzuti. Note that it does not name the conferring organization or agency and does not bear the official UN emblem but another emblem somewhat inspired by it.  --Lambiam 22:00, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please, can you help me to find if this manor is modeled from a real-life place? Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.135.196 (talk) 22:07, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You could consult the archives to see what the answers were the previous times you posed these types of questions. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:37, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It does not strike a chord as an existing building. As a private house, it would need to be enormous. If it is based on a real building, it would more probably be a palace of some sort. The architectural style is some modern reinterpretation of the neo-classical style but the shape of the structure, with the domed hexagonal tower in the central courtyard, is definitely not from that time period and more likely a post-modern interpretation of the style. Most likely, it was a figment of the imagination of manga's creator, based on the styles I mentioned. Xuxl (talk) 16:40, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks to the gracious help of my fellow editors I have confirmed that copies of this paper from its founding still exist but unfortunately I do not live in British Columbia. Is there any way to view these without traveling? The previous question can be viewed above. Thanks in advance. Gandalf the Groovy (talk) 01:11, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You may be able to request the microform reels via Interlibrary loan if you go to your local library (or, better yet, a university library that you may be affiliated with as a student, faculty, or alumni). Librarians are, in my experience, more than willing to help with queries such as this. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 01:33, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Cycling was adopted by Muslim women some time early 20th century itself. Some Muslim majority countries allowed cycling through out some did not.

I am looking for help in finding out

a) Which all Muslim majority countries have allowed women cycling and their Olympic participation throughout

b) Which are those Muslim majority countries sent women cyclists to Olympics intermittently

c) Can you name some prominent Muslim women cyclists from non-Muslim majority countries.

Bookku (talk) 05:24, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have no idea, I just came here to say that you have ruined the introductory paragraph of Bicycling in Islam with your latest edits. Are you a native English speaker? Your writing style suggests that you may not be. I can't be bothered to change it back myself or to discuss it on the article's talk page, but I really hope someone else does, because it's just not good enough. --Viennese Waltz 08:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

First, I removed it myself, I had mentioned in summary to revert it if some one dose not like. You are a very experienced user, you could have reverted or helped out with ease and you certainly know this is not the forum. Any ways we shall do better Bookku (talk) 12:53, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't done a lot of research, but I want to note a few points.

Cycling, whether competitive or utilitarian, men or women, isn't very prominent in the Muslim world anyway. In my home country, the Netherlands, the large Turkish and Moroccan immigrant communities are strongly underrepresented on the cycling path and overrepresented in public transport buses, although they are on average younger and should be more capable of riding a bike. In professional cycling, only two Muslim majority countries are somewhat notable: Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan, both secular former Soviet republics. I'm pretty sure that the answer to your question A includes both.

How many cyclists a country can send to the Olympics (or World Championships) is decided by the International Cycling Union (UCI). They have rules for this, depending on how that country is represented on the world ranking and on some continental rankings. Africa and Asia are usually poorly represented on the world ranking, so they only get a few tickets for the best countries on the continental rankings. Most of the African tickets normally go to South Africa and some East African countries like Eritrea, Ethiopia and Rwanda; there are very few tickets left for the Muslim countries. Even if a country allows female cyclists to go to the Olympics, it remains to be seen whether the UCI allows that too.

There are some Afghan women cyclist competing internationally. They are based in Switzerland, where the entire Afghan cycling union is based in exile since the Taliban took over in Kabul. They are supported by the UCI and could at least theoretically compete in the Olympic Games, even when the Afghan government (if you choose to recognise it) doesn't allow so. PiusImpavidus (talk) 12:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oh I did not know about this UCI thing. Thanks for info. Bookku (talk) 13:12, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Booku: you can research women's participation in Olympic cycling events at [10], which is a comprehensive database of Olympic events and participants. This can at least give you a sense of which Muslim countries have, over the years, sent female competitors to Olympic cycling events. It is likely a lot more difficult to find information about other UCI-sponsored events, such as regional championships, but that is where you're likely to find more participants from countries where competitive cycling is not as developed (after all, the Olympics are for the best athletes in the world in their respective discipline). Also remember that there's a huge difference between cycling as a sport, and everyday use of bicycles for transport. Bicycles used to be the principal mode of transportation in China, for example, but the country was a non-factor in international cycling competitions at that time. Xuxl (talk) 16:50, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

How thick was a UK two-penny coin in 1817?

This week, the earliest-known recipe for potato crisps was auctioned.^{Ref, which I'm afraid is "The Sun".} It was mentioned on the BBC Radio 4 show "PM", today.^{BBC audio link. The last 5 minutes is about crisps.}

The recipe says, "Peel large potatoes, and slice them the thickness of a two-penny piece".^Picture

I've found some info on two-penny coins from that era, in auctions and suchlike - but they don't give their dimensions, other than their weight. I've found information about "cartwheel twopence" of 1797, and of George III Maunday money, and all kinds of things - but nothing about thicknesses.

So - how thick should the potatoes be cut?

86.24.168.231 (talk) 18:16, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. I guess it's Twopence (British pre-decimal coin), but that article doesn't state the thickness? 86.24.168.231 (talk) 18:33, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If it was the copper 'cartweel' twopence as described in our article, Twopence (British pre-decimal coin), we already have enough information to calculate its thickness if you ignore the fact that it isn't a perfect cylinder, since we know its diameter (41 mm), its mass (56.7 g), and its composition (copper, which has a density of 8.96 g/cm³). From my maths this works out to 4.8 mm. This website [11] (no guarantees as to its accuracy) says 5 mm.

Some Silver twopences were minted in 1817, which would presumably have been smaller, though I'd think the copper coins would have been more likely to be used as a descriptor for the recipe, since readers would have been more familiar with them. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:08, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

[Edit Conflict] It would depend if it were the more common copper coin, or the silver twopence, coincidentally introduced in 1817. Assuming it was the copper, the article states the diameter as 1.6 in (41 mm), and shows an edge-on photo, which can be measured to give an approximate thickness of 3/16 in (5 mm), which should be good enough for culinary work. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.198.141.181 (talk) 19:21, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I did consider working out the density based on the composition, but - it's obviously not pure copper? ¬¬¬¬ 86.24.168.231 (talk) 20:51, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well, Wikipedia says "copper", not for example "bronze". Even if it wasn't pure copper, the amount of other metal would surely not be enough to change the thickness significantly, especially for culinary purposes. --174.89.12.187 (talk) 05:27, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

OK, it's just that 5 mm sounds rather thick, for a coin.

The current 2p, for example, is about 2 mm. 86.24.168.231 (talk) 14:57, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If any of you have access to the internet you can google (other search engines are available) cartwheel twopence dimensions. Just under a table of the main dimensions is a link to a numismatic website, which says it was 5mm thick. DuncanHill (talk) 15:08, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have seen a George III cartwheel twopence and it's considerably thicker than the current 2p coin, especially the chunky rim which I suspect gave rise to its nickname. This website also gives a thickness of 5 mm or 0.2 inches for the unconverted. Alansplodge (talk) 16:22, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The cartwheels were 'rather thick for a coin', and the largest coins to go into circulation. Their impracticality was presumably why they were discontinued. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:22, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I agree.

But I think, by 1817, the writer was probably thinking of more common 2d coins, not the cartwheel version.

I'm quite surprised how difficult it's been to try and find an answer to my question - I'd have thought a quick internet search would tell me, but I've been struggling.

I remain curious, because I'd like to know how thick those "proto-crisps" were. 5 mm would be more akin to scalloped potatoes than e.g. Pringles.

86.24.168.231 (talk) 21:09, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Our article on the tuppence suggests the silver ones were a rarity, it was the cartwheels that circulated. DuncanHill (talk) 21:16, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia seems to be deeply confused by scalloped potatoes and potato scallops. Both terms, to me, mean the battered and fried slices we describe under potato cake! Anyway, the recipe isn't for potato crisps, it's for potatoes fried in slices. DuncanHill (talk) 21:20, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Cartwheels - yes, but it also says that melting them down for their copper "became endemic by 1812. Then it talks of the "recoinage programme in 1816", but that doesn't say anything about such small denominations.

"potatoes fried" - Well, yes, because the word "crisps" in the sense of thin, fried potato, didn't exist at the time.

All I'm trying to figure out is, what a person of 1817 meant when they said "the thickness of a two-penny piece". If it's 5 mm, I think I wouldn't consider them crisps. If it's 2 mm, I think I would. I realise that's subjective, but I'm just trying to find the measurement, and then perhaps I'll experiement with the recipe. 86.24.168.231 (talk) 22:27, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

How does the United Kingdom education systems compare to those in the United States? In the United States, it begins with pre-school, pre-K, then K-6 or 8, and high school, 9-12. 2600:6C52:7C00:3A26:8C29:38C5:1E42:D2DA (talk) 20:39, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The article Education in England might answer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.24.168.231 (talk) 20:54, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not to mention Education in Scotland, Education in Wales, and Education in Northern Ireland,

It tends to be rather different from that in the rest of Europe. NadVolum (talk) 13:11, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Intricacies of education systems vary from country to country based on historic developments and current legal frameworks, and I doubt it would be easy to find two that would be similar enough for one to be mistaken for another. Heck, there are even differences among the education systems in the individual German federal states! --Ouro (blah blah) 14:45, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comparisons of structure are quite easy. It is harder to compare the quality or effectiveness of education. I did wonder about a crude measure such as 'Nobel laureates per head of population', but I became concerned that St Lucia might leave the rest of the world in the dust! (See List of Nobel laureates by country) -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 14:52, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

See also Comparison of the British and American education systems. Alansplodge (talk) 16:15, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a good introduction to transaction cost theory somewhere on the net? Best as text or video 2A02:908:424:9D60:8447:A3C6:50F5:A472 (talk) 09:17, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You may try Transaction cost and see where this takes you. --Ouro (blah blah) 14:41, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]