Talk:Srinagar: Difference between revisions

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The contents of the Sheikh Bagh Cemetery page were merged into Srinagar on October 2018. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page.

Some one may organize images in wiki-commons, and give a link here. --Bhadani 15:55, 9 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, I uploaded a new pano shot this spring: File:Srinagar_pano.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by KennyOMG (talk • contribs) 16:33, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

'Currently, the issue of Srinagar, having become an integral part of India, stands settled beyond any doubt, in spite of certain insurgent elements operating from the soil of India, as also from outside the borders of India.'

I think much more needs to be mention about the insurgency... dealing with it in a single sentence is bypassing a major issue, and disrespect for the many people, both soldiers and civilains, who have died due to the conflict there... All I'm askng for is extending the history of the city discribe what happened there in the last 20 years.

Another point is there no mention about the impact of the insurgency on tourism in the history section or about it limping back on growing domestic tourists population.

hydkat 21:06, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

'truth always triumphs' (written on the Indian national emblem.

Kashmir is disputed and this is acknowledged by UNO.There are 23 resolutions in UNO regarding jammu and kashmir.India is a member of UNO and it was jawaharlal Nehru,first prime minister of india,who took kashmir issue to UNO.Hence India is bound by its commitmnt,it gave to people of J&K.People who talk of integral part theory,should ponder over this fact and talk sensibily.Till now 2 lakh people have died,fighting for the right of self determination.This is the only fact.

I have lived my entire life in Srinagar and I have never heard the names of the following people which have been listed as leaders of Srinagar:

1. Dr Agnishekhar
2. Dr Ajay Chrangoo
3. Mr Ashwani Chrangoo
4. Dr Utpal Kaul
5. Dr KL Chowdhary

They might have their roots in Srinagar but they sure enough do not qualify to be called "Current leaders of the city"

1. Dr Shakti Bhan is a doctor, a well know one, but by no way a Leader!

Are people trying to create true and honest information on Srinagar or are we fighting to whom Srinagar belongs. And since Srinagar is the capital of a disputed territory, it should be put as such.

Wullar 12:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am not aware of the notability or otherwise of the persons mentioned above. However, I am sure that under international law as recognized and practiced by the civilized comity of nations, insurgent elements do not abrogate the sovereign rights of a sovereign country (read India) over its territories. --Bhadani (talk) 17:11, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

please all indian editors accept that it is administered. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nangparbat (talk • contribs) 17:00, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I request the registered as well as the anonymous editors to please stop converting this article into a battlefield. Decent discussion shall avoid wastage of time. Please do not fight here. --Bhadani (talk) 16:37, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

However, Jammu and Kashmir is Indian administered —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.254.133.29 (talk) 19:56, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Some believe the Martyr's Tomb in Srinagar is the tomb of Jesus Christ. e.g., http://www.spinninglobe.net/jesustombpol.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.159.146.186 (talk) 03:20, 23 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See WP:FRINGE. Tgeorgescu (talk) 21:30, 24 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

a bit too late to answer but the urban legend is about Roza Bal and not the martyr's tomb. Mhveinvp (talk) 09:40, 5 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

{{editsemiprotected}}

Please replace [[trekking|trekkers]] with [[Backpacking (wilderness)|trekkers]] (because Trekking is a disambiguation page). Thanks. 58.8.9.23 (talk) 10:48, 22 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

 Done by User:Oniongas - 58.8.9.23 (talk) 17:03, 22 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

By the reference on the page ([1]), Amritsar is a bigger city than Srinagar. Amritsar has a majority of Sikhs (78%) ([2]) making that statement invalid. Please remove it ASAP. --92.9.87.247 (talk) 21:22, 2 December 2010 (UTC) srinagar is not the state of india. srinagar is captial of indian ocupied jammu and kashmir —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.253.23.104 (talk) 08:01, 22 March 2011 (UTC) I don´t quite understand the last point here. The article does not say that Srinagar is a state (or does it?), so I´ll assume you mean to refer to what nation Srinagar belongs to. Did I understand this issue right? Llidstrom (talk) 19:18, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Srinagar is the largest city in Indian administration with a Non-Hindu majority. Please do not word like occupied and integral, no matter what is your national affiliation. Amritsar has a Hindu plurality but not the majority. However, the district is the Sikh majority. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pratham12Chawdhry (talk • contribs)

{{edit semi-protected}}

Please change " Bahut Randiyan hain yahan aur unki chut badi komal hai Land choos choos ke sukha deti hain. Zaroor Chodna." because of offensive language. 117.252.69.156 (talk) 18:19, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:11, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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There are some additions that can be made under the heading Education

Ashaqhussain (talk) 17:02, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. — Bility (talk) 18:26, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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Please remove the quoted text under Culture because the comments translated from Hindi are abusive and insulting.

"Bahut Randiyan hain yahan aur unki chut badi komal hai Land choos choos ke sukha deti hain. Zaroor Chodna."

Navkaul (talk) 06:46, 29 April 2011 (UTC) navkaul[reply]

 Not done, sorry, "absuve and insulting" aren't good enough reasons to remove it, note WP:NOTCENSORED CTJF83 15:53, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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The following line is vulgar .. In the section on culture, last line reads...."Bahut Randiyan hain yahan aur unki chut badi komal hai Land choos choos ke sukha deti hain. Zaroor Chodna." which means there are prostitutes here. it should be deleted.

74.77.135.130 (talk) 16:00, 15 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:25, 15 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The last line under heading Culture is vulgar as well as racist and pornographic. Thanks for removing. 74.77.135.130 (talk) 17:44, 15 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No problem, next time just call it vandalism ;). -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:01, 15 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Would it be worth inserting something about the 300 year rule of the Lohara dynasty, c. 1000 - 1300 AD/CE. They do not appear to be mentioned at all and while it is true that I am still working on the Lohara article, there is more than enough there to justify something here. Unless, of course, there was more than one Srinagar in Kashmir at that time. - Sitush (talk) 04:49, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please can someone explain to me what the connection is between the etymology of Srinagar and the two possible Ashokas? It simply does not say in the article, and then in the History section there is a totally uncited paragraph that claims the city was founded by someone completely different to these two possibles. This is messy beyond belief.

This link to Kalhana (Aurel Stein's translation) shows Stein's analysis at p. 75, saying that Kalhana believes Asjoka founded the original city close to the present site but unfortunately I cannot determine (due to ignorance, I suspect) which Ashoka he is referring to. In any event, this should be a citation because it is in the critique section rather than the primary source itself. I just don't know which Ashoka to stick the cite next to! Thoughts would be welcomed. - Sitush (talk) 07:31, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Update: page 84 of the same book linked above gives the refoundation detail, so I guess we have a cite. - Sitush (talk) 08:06, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Srinagar pano.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on May 6, 2013. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2013-05-06. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. Thanks! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:10, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Picture of the day

A panoramic view of Srinagar, the largest city of Jammu and Kashmir, India. Built on both the sides of the Jhelum River, Srinagar is home to over 1.2 million people. It serves as the state's summer capital.Photo: KennyOMG

Archive – More featured pictures...

@Sitush:, can you provide link of page where consensus on use of "official Indian languages" in lead section is accepted? Because if you read WP:INDICSCRIPT they clearly mentions that "There is community consensus that the lead sentence of an article should not contain any regional or Indic language script. It is suggested that IPA be used for help with pronunciation." --Vtk1987 (talk) 09:19, 2 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have opened a thread at WT:INB. I know I am right about the exception for placenames but it looks like no-one actually bothered to update the guideline. Hopefully, it will be resolved in the next few hours. - Sitush (talk) 09:20, 2 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Sitush:, I will give you two biased example, User Kashmiri removed Marathi text(official language) from article Marathwada(place name) see here, Benagali text from Asansol See here, while he has no problem with Urdu in Srinagar article, he never removes Urdu from this article. See here, he removed Devanagari script from this article which is not official language of Kashmir, it is ok but never tried to remove Urdu text from here citing it as official language of J & K, but I can show he removes Devanagari text from many other articles, though they are Official languages of respective regions. And he is "senior editor", he is "File mover" and "Rollbacker", what you are doing against such biased editors? --Vtk1987 (talk) 10:01, 2 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It may not be bias; it could just be a simple misunderstanding. I think we are better waiting for people to comment in the INB thread, sort out the revised wording of the guideline and then take things from there. Kashmiri will have seen your note above and they, too, should take heed of consensus. - Sitush (talk) 10:04, 2 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I will add that it is precisely this sort of messing about with scripts that caused the guideline to be introduced in the first place, and it is why I still believe that they are more trouble than they are worth. - Sitush (talk) 10:42, 2 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

If anyone fails to provide consensus link, or it is not get cleared on "India related topic noticeboard" as you said in next few hours, then we have to remove "Urdu" text from lead of this article, as there is clear cut consensus mentioned on WP:INDICSCRIPT. --Vtk1987 (talk) 10:56, 2 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Not if you are trying to make a point due to Kashmiri's efforts, which is what seems possibly to be the case. Hours, days, makes no odds really. Weeks would be a different matter but I could give you some links right now that show the matter has been discussed and people (escept me!) were generally in favour. All I cannot find is the precise thread where a resolution was determined. - Sitush (talk) 11:01, 2 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It is not because of User Kashmiri, you asked me on my talk page to give some example so I given you, there are many other users (like Ankush89) who kept on removing Indic script from "places" articles. If you ask for my opinion, I am in strong support of Keeping Indic script in lead section, either it is in Urdu or Hindi or Bengali. But some users are keep on doing biased editing regarding this "Indic script" policy. Rule should be same for all languages, thats what I want to make a point. --Vtk1987 (talk) 11:10, 2 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Vtk1987: I was in favour of removing Urdu from all India-related articles as per Wikiproject India RFP, but then I was informed by folks from Wikiproject Pakistan that they do not have such restrictions and they routinely keep Urdu names in their articles. Since Srinagar (and all localities in the entire contested area) falls also under Wikiproject Pakistan (whether right or wrong, I don't judge), then I understand Urdu language is bound to stay in ledes. kashmiri ^TALK 10:19, 4 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That's right where an article is of interest to several different projects. The consensus was only of the India project, not site-wide. In this specific case, though, it seems only to be of interest to the India project. Am I missing something? - Sitush (talk) 10:34, 4 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Well interesting discussion,Kashmiri, Jammu and Kashmir don't comes under Wikiproject Pakistan and article doesn't has such tag. Next time be careful while editing, don't remove Indic script from Place names as some comments of Sitush suggests that consensus has been made on that. And Urdu is also Indian language. Or have you gain consensus from Wikiproject Bangladesh before removing Bengali text from Asansol? --Human3015 15:08, 4 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Kashmiri, show the clear community consensus on Urdu language not personal discussion. --Vtk1987 (talk) 23:25, 4 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Having spent some time there, I'm just curious about how well corroborated this number could be, moreso how one would reliably assess such a number in such a complex municipality.Wikibearwithme (talk) 08:15, 6 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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My recent edit to this page was reverted as it appeared to the editor to be WP:ADVOCACY of a particular point of view, specifically waste management in Indian cities or by Indian municipalities. I am relatively new to Wikipedia and see myself as a steward for water, sanitation and solid waste management related content on the site. These are the issues that I intend to write about in a neutral, balanced and informative manner. On reading my edits to the Srinagar page you will find that all of the content is verifiable i.e. it is sourced from reliable and published sources. My writing style, in my opinion, is (1) fact based, (2) neutral in tone without any puffery, contentious labels or unsupported attributions and (3) balanced i.e. holistic and not highlighting fringe views. I do not regard my edits as WP:ADVOCACY and would like to restore the content. -- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Swmwash (talk • contribs)

I took a look at your edit, which can be found here.

The problem with it is that it is too detailed, and doesn't give a high-level picture of what the issues are. Please see WP:SUMMARYSTYLE. I recommend that you work on a one-paragraph summary of the issues, and propose it here for comments. You can also use your sandbox (see HELP:My sandbox) to create drafts and polish them. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:51, 21 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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there are few lines that are discriminatory towards the people of Srinagar and the freedom fighter, Srinagar in not an Indian state and it's an Indian occupied territory under UN Resolution of Kashmir 1948 until the Referendum his held. simply stating Srinagar as Indian state Capital in offensive towards the life sacrificed by the oppressed freedom fighters and the people raped or killed by Indian army, this statement should immediately be changed thank you , from azad jamu kashmir 39.41.129.17 (talk) 05:28, 2 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

How do reliable sources tend to describe Srinagar? I don't see how describing the protests is discriminatory. – Þjarkur (talk) 09:32, 2 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have had this similar discussions on other pages before. from what i understand of the editor, he wants to get Srinagar written as "Indian administered Kashmir which is legally true according to the UN resolution he/she mentioned instead of "Indian state of jammu and kashmir". second, ^[1] this paragraph mentions "Further massacres in the spring of 1990 in which 51 allegedly unarmed protesters were allegedly killed by Indian security forces in Zakura and Tengpora heightened anti-Indian sentiments in Srinagar". Twice use of allegedly word in the same sentence and the original editor still wants to push "alleged" idea after 28 years. its well documented that they were unarmed civilians but that is not the intention of this sentence. Further, ", such as the 22 August 2008" this sentence mentions protests but fails to mention the shutdown that happened that year due to Amarnath land transfer controversy that year and on that particular date being mentioned, failed to report 21 deaths after police fired on them. this is from the same cite note 24 but was NOT reported on the page. next, Afzal guru is mentioned and the protests during that time but people who were killed by forces during that time were not mentioned^[2]. Kashmiri pandits are mentioned in the paragraph and the editor conveniently fails to mention another aspect of the situation where Jagmohan, the then governor was instrumental in sending the kashmiri pandit community out of kashmir valley in the hopes of only targetting muslim majority that would be left behind. this fact is often overlooked but beyond the hohum of the millitants and calls for "nizam -e- mustafa" that indeed took place, violence against the minority was committed no doubt but to squarely lay blaim on the muslim majority for driving the hindu minority out is wrong. ^[3][4] even if this version of the story is not palatable to the majority of editors here because it does not fit with someone's ideology, there is no reason to not mention it. This is a documented version of events and that needs to be told. Who was right or wrong is not for us editors to decide. we have to mention facts and this version happens to be a fact and one which is well documented. Next, the original editor fails to mention how the present community in kashmir valley at least has been urging the pandit community for a long time but sadly this part is also conveniently left out. ^[5]

^[6][3]^[7] all of this is just out of a cursory look at the page. I could go on and on. I suggest the issues i took up in support of the editor who made this request be discussed at length and an impartial decision by editors who would not have any previous history of editing on kashmir related pages decide because everyone is influnced by their prejudices one way the other and its only natural. Again, there are far more experienced editors than me. if i was able to dig this much up in half an hour, i suppose there would be more qualified editors to take this forward. Mhveinvp (talk) 13:52, 2 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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Change "Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir" to "Indian occupied Jammu and Kashmir" FixingALie (talk) 20:35, 8 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Melmann 14:50, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Please see the discussion at the India wikiproject noticeboard aiming to craft standardised neutral ledes for some top-level Kashmir-related article, including possibly this one. Abecedare (talk) 19:07, 20 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there, I think this article suffers from a curious case of mispronunciation. The lead states the pronunciation is [sriːnəɡər] and while it's been years since I was there I'm quite sure locals pronounce it as [ʃriːnəɡər] (ie "Shrinagar"). I understand the issue with Hindi script and all (which was the reason my request to rename the article in the Hungarian wiki was shut down a few years ago) but I think Wiki should also respect how locals say the name of their own city even ifthat flies in the face of grammar. A case can also be made that there are very few (are there any?) other place names Sri xxx where the Sri is pronounced as "s" instead of "sh". If there are any locals who can weigh in it would be great. -- KennyOMG (talk) 22:33, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The locals in Kashmir certainly both write and pronounce it as [sriːnaɡər]. If you hear anyone in J&K saying [ʃriːnəɡər], you can be sure they are from India. — kashmīrī ^TALK 08:49, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Generally, the Kashmiri language has maintained the s–ś distinction, and therefore śrī is unlikely to have evolved into srī, especially given the fact that śrī meaning "Lakshmi" or honorific is still pronounced as śrī in Kashmiri.

On an unrelated note, Sri Lanka is pronounced just this there: "Srī Lankā". — kashmīrī ^TALK 16:48, 16 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Link to revert

Kashmiri What is your problem? Do address here. LearnIndology (talk) 02:26, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You are trying to present folk etymology as an alternative "theory", based on selective quotes from tourist guides and a mid-19th century book. That's rather a problem. — kashmīrī ^TALK 08:10, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Your argument doesn't make sense. Our work is to present every possible aspect of the origin of name. Whether it is folk based or some other based is not a reason to not add it. In fact every etymology in the world is obscure. And there is no tourist guide book, please re-check the source, and how is old book a concern? LearnIndology (talk) 08:37, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Don't you agree that your statement that every etymology in the world is obscure is sufficient to ask you not to edit on etymology anywhere on Wikipedia? As you might know, competency is absolutely required in this project. By the way, yes, a mid-19th century book is of much concern because it was written before modern linguistics was developed. And no, a folk etymology must not be presented as an "alternative theory", much like pseudoscience must not be presented as a scientific theory.

I am also sorry to disappoint you that not every locality name that starts with sri is related to the Sanskrit honorific. Precisely like in this case. — kashmīrī ^TALK 15:42, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The books of 20th century says the same thing. You are just beating around the bush and wasting my time. If you have any logical argument left, then please do tell. LearnIndology (talk) 21:51, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Kashmiri. We need high-quality sources from reputed academic publishers, that is also recent. TrangaBellam (talk) 13:05, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, there's no need to use a slew of passing mentions or old books. One or two high-quality references for each view should be enough. Regardless, there are several oddities in the current text. I've checked the first three of the eight refs in the section. Ref #13 is to the entry for śrīnagara in Monier–Williams's dictionary, and it's used to support the etymology from Surya. That dictionary mentions no such an etymology, and, in fact, the whole entry is defined as ‘city of Fortune’, [Name] of two towns (one situated in the district of Caunpore, the other in Bundelcund) – it's not about this Srinagar anyway. The quote given for ref #14 (Sufi's book) doesn't appear to be in the text (at least not when I search for it on the google books item linked there). Ref #15 (Rabbani's book) contains exactly the same lengthy passage as ref #14; I can't see the wider context from the google books snippet, but it doesn't appear to be formatted as a quote, so most likely one of the books had plagiarised from the other. We can't cite both here, and we definitely should not support plagiarism. Also, it's unclear, in the wikipedia text, which of the two etymologies these texts are supposed to support. – Uanfala (talk) 16:03, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Kashmiri: has already noted about issues arising from usage of old works in the field of linguistics. Deriving from that and HISTRS, comments about LearnIndology's sources at this version:-

[13] is a 1899 dictionary, which as Uanfala notes, does not support the text.

[14] is actually this book, a 1948 work. (The '74 ed is a reprint). Where is the quote?

[15] is by some local publisher and a non-acclaimed scholar. No reviews of the work, either. Hardly any citations to this work. How does this pass HISTRS?

[16] is a 1915 travelogue by a colonial official. How does this pass HISTRS? What did you learn at the talk-page concerned with Persecution of Hindus?

[17] is by some high-school-teacher whose claim to fame lies in ornithology and allied affairs. The book has been hardly cited by anyone. So, obviously, it has to be HISTRS in linguistics.

[18] is a sociology book by a state-university professor. No reviews and very few cites.

[19] is by "Aamir Publication, Srinagar" which seems to be yet another local publication house. The only review notes :- ...There are real shortcomings. Khan's explanations are not always consistent. Some of his conclusions do not seem grounded in the text. Footnotes and bibliography are extensive but difficult to reconcile and utilize. In the end the reader grasps Srinagar's past uncertainly but may appreciate more fully the socioeconomic complexities underlying modern Kashmir's turbulent history. Obviously, it is the best HISTRS in linguistics.

[20] is a 1859 work. Sure, that's a great HISTRS. Do you (again) need individual critiques by modern scholars?

TrangaBellam (talk) 17:08, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• @Uanfala: You searched in a wrong place. Look up sūryanagara in MW instead.[4] TrangaBellam, MW is an infinitely more reputable tertiary source in the subject of Indian etymologies than the Spanish tourist and the ornitolgist combined who happen to promote śrī + nagara.

Primarily, should the city's name originate from śrī + nagara, the original ś would have been retained today, since the Kashmiri language has largely retained the original three sibilant consonants s ś ṣ. Yet, MW records it with s while having zero records for "ś".

My OR: Also, the cult of Surya (incl. of the Suryavamshi kings) appears to have been much more widespread in the Valley in the 2nd half of the 1st millennium than the cult of Lakshmi (also did not come across her being called "Śri" in the region).

All in all, the sūrya- etymology appears much more correct to me. — kashmīrī ^TALK 18:40, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Kashmiri, I will note that blind reliance on MW ought not be practised. Notwithstanding postcolonial critique of his methodology, we have other fundamental issues at play. TrangaBellam (talk) 19:14, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Kashmiri, the dictionary entry cited in the article was that for śrīnagara, not for sūryanagara. Of course, that could be corrected. However, MW only states that sūryanagara was what the city was called, he doesn't explicitly make that the source of the modern-day name (though obviously, this lends credence to such an etymology). – Uanfala (talk) 19:21, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The only sensible conclusion is that the form śrīnagara to denote the Kashmiri city did not occur in any text that MW included. TrangaBellam Noted, thank you. However, I don't think the few mistakes in MW's dictionary invalidate the entire work or turn random tourists or journalists into authorities on onomastics. — kashmīrī ^TALK 02:11, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Well that's your personal opinion User:Kashmiri

User:TrangaBellam, we have enough reliable refs to support the section, what is your concern then? LearnIndology (talk) 19:03, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Which source (other than MW) do you wish to defend? TrangaBellam (talk) 19:14, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I would say that we don't really need HISTRS for etymologies. Anybody that can reliably record the local tradition is good enough, but let us note that it is the local tradition and be done with it. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:54, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

On the contrary, we need even better sources for an etymology than for most other things. Even if the competing popular traditions don't disagree, as they do here, they always tend to be fanciful folk etymologies that are very seldom linguistically sound. On an unrelated note, do we really need a separate article section for that? The various names of a place will naturally arise in any discussion of its history, and there any additional notes about the names can be given. – Uanfala (talk) 20:06, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If you are declaring the folk etymology route explicitly, I have no issues. Otherwise, the guideline need to be followed. TrangaBellam (talk) 20:07, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No. Local tradition is what the local people believe, generally passed down through generations. It is not "folk etymology". Well, it could have been folk whenever somebody came up with it. But we can't do any better than that. Serious scholars are not going to waste their energy digging through the historical records to find the true meanings of names. Unless something really really rides on it (Gurjaradesa, for a prominent example), nobody sweats over names.

"Srinagar" is as ordinary as a name can be: "auspicious town", "great town", "beautiful town", "wealthy town", "prosperous town", take your pick. All of them would be equally valid. But if somebody says there is a local tradition saying it was named after the sun, well, that is interesting. I would mention it even if it sounds far-fetched. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 22:20, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ermm.. no. There have been literally thousands of papers unpicking the etymologies of anodyne daily words of one or another branch of Indo-European. If you find it hard to believe that serious scholars would be devoting energy to that, just pick any decent etymological dictionary and look at the references section. Normally, even more attention tends to be directed at names of prominent places, because that's no long of interest just to linguists. If there's anything reliably sourced that we could say about the origin of the city's name, we should say it. If we're only reporting popular conceptions, we should be explicit that it's popular conceptions that we're reporting. But what we can't do is take popular conceptions and present them as actual etymologies sanctioned by "scholarly interpretation". – Uanfala (talk) 23:08, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, looking at GMD Sufi, I notice that he explicitly denies that it means the "city of sun". (pp.47-48) So there goes that theory. He also says that it was simply called the "city of Kashmir" during the Muslim rule, but I notice Addisthan in Al-Biruni. He says the old name was reinstated during the Sikh rule. Do we believe that? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 00:33, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Kautilya3: Ehmm... Are you suggesting that toponymy, and more broadly, onomastics are equal in worth to folk etymology? My hope is that someone who conflates astrology and astronomy won't try to write encyclopaedic articles about planets...

Here it comes that GMD Sufi was a historian, not a linguist. — kashmīrī ^TALK 02:04, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Do we have linguists claiming that Srinagar means the "city of the sun"? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 02:16, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Monier-Williams was one, and a WP:TERTIARY source, too. Primarily, however, I am not aware of any source that would attest the form śrīnagara prior to modern times, and in Hindi only (since the Kashmiri language has it srinagar). — kashmīrī ^TALK 02:23, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Monier-Williams isn't saying that śrīnagara means the "city of the sun". He is talking about the meaning of surya-nagara, and saying that it is commonly called "siri-nagar". I have no idea what this is supposed to mean? Is there a place called surya-nagar, which is also called siri-nagar? Or is he just rationalising the 19th century Kashmiri interpretation of the name?

śrīnagara appears dozens of times in Stein's Rajatarangini [5] (not that often in the original text, but that is because it wasn't called so for the majority of history. It was called pravarapura, adhishthana etc.) -- Kautilya3 (talk) 02:51, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

And the footnote 8 on this page (volume 2) is brilliant. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 03:27, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

An interesting catch. — kashmīrī ^TALK 13:15, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see any issue with the references cited -- they appear reliable and, thus, can be used without any issue. If any one of you have an alternate theory about the etymology, then please add it. --1990'sguy (talk) 00:02, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Did you look at TrangaBellam's comments above? – Uanfala (talk) 00:06, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Good evening, I wanted to point out one factual point regarding Srinagar. In Kashmiri language itself, Srinagar is called "Sirīnagar" ( سِریٖنَگَر or سِری نَگَر). Sirī means Sun in Kashmiri language. Imranqazi90 (talk) 23:15, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Returning to this issue after a while. I think Monier Williams entry is quite irrelevant because it is about surya-nagara, but there is no evidence that this city was ever called by that name. Can somebody provide sources for its name in Kashmiri and its Kashmiri meaning? @Imranqazi90, Uanfala, Kashmiri, TrangaBellam, and LearnIndology: -- Kautilya3 (talk) 22:03, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Monier-Williams's meanings of śrī are worthwhile. Apparently the Rigvedic meaning is "to burn, flame, diffuse light" (H1). Classical meaning is "śrī in the sense of 'diffusing light or radiance'; light, luster, radiance, splendor, glory, beauty, grace, loveliness" (H3). Note that there is no mention of goddess Laskshmi or wealth. Since Asoka also built a Buddhist monastery next to the city, the idea that he named it after goddess Lakshmi would also be far-fetched.

Finally, the meaning of "radiance", "diffuse light" connects it to the later day Kashmiri meaning of sun, even though in Sanskrit itself śrī is not used to refer to sun. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 23:04, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding this edit by 1990'sguy. The number 1250173 is of the Srinagar district as clearly written in the source [6]. This has been added in the Srinagar district. The Srinagar is the city article, so for the parameter |city= the source is this (1,180,570) and for |metro= the number is 1,273,312 sourced here. Note that it is the same in the status quo version. this old version for example, before one user Soumo Dutt added the population of the district in the city. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 14:53, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Request to delete the street dog controversy from politics section. Qwertyuiop84919 (talk) 19:09, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Qwertyuiop84919: It's quite a big issue I would say. Why do you want it deleted? Rishabhbhat (talk) 04:41, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

street dog controversy is not a political issue but a social one, plus these types of issues are in every city and none other than Srinagar city has Wikipedia written on it, I just told you to not put it in the political section, and if you want to keep it then make an another section for street dog controversy. Qwertyuiop84919 (talk) 05:34, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It became political when

Animal rights activists vowed to go to court to stop the slaughter planned by Srinagar city, saying it is an illegal and cruel solution to a problem that could be better addressed with other methods.

— https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna23500493

. Read also: Srinagar MC to sterilise, vaccinate 50,000 dogs in 6 months - Hindustan Times. Srinagar's dogs are more prominent than any other city, especially contrasting population. Rishabhbhat (talk) 05:57, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

TI, please gain a consensus in favor if you wish to reinsert the content. My edit-summary is self-explanatory. TrangaBellam (talk) 14:37, 11 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The line cited to CSP needs to be tempered down following the lead of our article on exodus. TrangaBellam (talk) 16:10, 11 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Valley of Kashmir by Lawrence is a primary as well as Raj era source. Apart from that, the third party sources have ignored the claim made by Lawrence. LearnIndology (talk) 17:39, 11 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You cannot insert random data from one article's footnotes, which cited the wrong page number. I will not oppose you in adding the 1891 data, as long as you do not introduce an artificial contrast. TrangaBellam (talk) 17:47, 11 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

LearnIndology, In 1891 census, the net population of Srinagar was recorded as 1,18,960. Of this, there were 26,069 KH (and 92,575 KM). Therefore, %(KH) = 21.9% TrangaBellam (talk) 17:38, 11 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Good find. I'll add 1891 data. LearnIndology (talk) 17:57, 11 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As per 2021 Nepal census, the population of Kathmandu city is 845,767 only which is below than its count in 2011 Nepal census 975,000. Srinagar is now the largest city proper in Himalayas. Though the urban metropolitan population of the densely populated Kathmandu valley is 2.9 million as per 2021 Nepal census. So, experts decide either which is larger? city population or metro (incl. suburb) population?

Source: Central Bureau of Statistics 2022 https://web.archive.org/web/20220206104652/https://cbs.gov.np/wp-content/upLoads/2022/01/Final%20Preliminary%20Report%20of%20Census%202021%20Newfinal.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2400:1A00:B010:A349:C45B:F749:F66:83F0 (talk) 03:32, 9 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Right. Kathmandu city is merely 50 km2 in size, but the UA is 900 km2; Srinagar city is 300 km2, and UA is almost 800 km2. So obviously, the city propers are not comparable, because the Nepali government defines Kathmandu city’s size quite narrowly. Kathmandu also has many satellite cities, Srinagar not so much. The UAs are still comparable, so I’ll update the sentence accordingly. UnpetitproleX (talk) 21:53, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

.So i would kindly ask indians to kindly stop writing that it is Surya nagar . KasheerParast (talk) 12:10, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I would suggest that you elaborate your concerns here, with proper sources, instead of ad hominem attacks on supposed 'Indian' editors. For your information a lot of editors maintaining this article are not Indians. Good luck. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 15:51, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

add Pravarasena II as founder 2601:81:4080:9C10:451F:83EB:1BE1:90EC (talk) 14:05, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: as you have not cited reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 18:12, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

ADD Iqbal Memorial Institute in the List of Schools in Srinagar 2405:201:5504:60D2:F93D:88C4:E73A:5A61 (talk) 11:26, 8 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

ADD "Iqbal Memorial Institute" in the list of Schools in Srinagar 2405:201:5504:60D2:F93D:88C4:E73A:5A61 (talk) 11:29, 8 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. It must be notable enough for it's own article to be included. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:52, 8 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Maya Kheer Bhawani has a rich history as thousands of Kashmiri Pandits visit the holy temple every year during Ashtami. 2405:201:4017:80DB:80A0:E9D:30CB:BC2D (talk) 19:53, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@UnpetitproleX: Please note that the 2019 consensus was for the larger regions, the administrative subdivisions, the districts, and the capitals.

As you can see, there were 6 admins aboard and in addition quite a few others. It would be very odd that the large subdivisions would be described in NPOV language, but their capitals would not. We had already thought about this in 2019.

Please do not edit war; otherwise, I will get admin help, not least from those that were a part of the consensus. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 06:36, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In fact, as you will appreciate, the consensus devolved down to district capitals, and Srinagar is that too. See Kashmir_division#Districts Fowler&fowler«Talk» 06:49, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

WP:CONSENSUS clearly states that consensus is achieved through discussion or editing, and is modified through discussion or editing. The 2019 consensus is not recent, nor are these obscure pages that may have inadvertently missed an application of such an old consensus. On the capitals pages the opposite is true, the consensus has never been applied in the nearly 5 years that it has existed, and in fact editors, including those who were involved in building the 2019 consensus have consistently reverted to the current wording (Srinagar 1; Srinagar 2; Leh: “consensus only for top-level pages”; Muzaffarabad; Gilgit1; Gilgit2 there are likely more instances).

The 2019 consensus has only ever been applied to the subdivision pages, where it has survived. It is clear the consensus has evolved. You cannot claim consensus based on a 5 year old discussion whose results were never applied to these pages.

I would request you to stop edit warring, follow WP:BRD, try to change the established consensus for these pages through discussion as is required and please do get administrative involvement if you feel it necessary. UnpetitproleX (talk) 08:17, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There is no question of BRD when there is a consensus in place. Pinging @RegentsPark, Vanamonde93, Abecedare, Uanfala, DeluxeVegan, Johnuniq, Ms Sarah Welch, Lingzhi.Renascence, and Titodutta: Can you all please take care of this? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 09:18, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect this editor has appeared on this page to spruce it up in time for India's G20-related meeting in Srinagar which begins today. China, Turkey, Saudi Arabia are boycotting the meeting as they do not consider India to have sovereignty over Indian-administered Kashmir (let alone the Pakistani-administered). Kashmir remains the oldest dispute before the UN. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 09:35, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The US, UK, Canada, Australia, Germany, France, Italy, Australia, and Japan do not consider India to have undisputed sovereignty over Indian-administered Kashmir either, but as they now consider India to be a valuable ally against the larger western conflict with China, they don't bring it up publicly. All have voted to censure India in the UN Security Council resolutions of the 1950s. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:01, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hah, just saw this comment. I have to laugh. You appeared just before the G20 tourism meeting to “make uniform” Kashmir capitals, and yet it is me who you accuse of sprucing it up for the event. As for the boycotts by China and the three OIC countries, I don’t recall any of those countries—with the exception of China which is also party to the dispute and similarly boycotted events in Leh and Arunachal Pradesh—calling their absence a boycott. UnpetitproleX (talk) 22:20, 24 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Arunachal Pradesh is not considered disputed territory by the US (or by other countries such as Australia). But Kashmir is. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 08:58, 25 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The dispute is not between China and USA (or Australia). The dispute is between China and India. Other countries can take sides, that doesn’t make them party to the dispute. UnpetitproleX (talk) 23:42, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@UnpetitproleX: Your counter-examples in the diffs above are not accurate. Uanfala had reverted an edit because it had "Indian occupied Kashmir" in it, which is not a part of the consensus. As for Kautilya3, they are on record supporting the consensus:

Looks good. Thanks for generalising it to districts and district capitals. I agree that the dates can be omitted. "Disputed between India, Pakistan and China" should be good enough. My main concerning the overwhelming amount of quotations. I suggest that we use the full portfolio of quotations for the top-level pages, and limit to 1-2 quotations for the lower level pages. The full list of citations can still be present in all of them. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:12, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

That people may not be always applying the consensus consistently is not grounds for you to declare it null and void. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 09:52, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging also @Kautilya3, Gotitbro, and Arjayay: who have edited these capitals articles to keep in place the long-standing wording. UnpetitproleX (talk) 09:59, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also noting that I’m not declaring the 2019 consensus “null and void,” but pointing to the fact that this consensus has been effectively limited to the subdiv articles and never been applied to these article (the capitals) where the established consensus for the past half decade is not the 2019 one, which is where you seek to move it to five years after the fact. UnpetitproleX (talk) 10:07, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The original consensus was limited to lvl-1 administrative divisions (in the sense that it attracted no opposition), i.e., Jammu and Kashmir (union territory), Ladakh, Azad Kashmir, Gilgit Baltistan and Aksai Chin. Whether it has evolved in practice beyond that I cannot say but this is what I was clearly in consent back then for. The problem in putting in application such consensus to lvl-2 and below (where the consensus then was not clearly established) is that it is unnecessary and not what is generally followed on enwiki where de-facto descriptions follow lvl-2, see for example Artsakh, Western Saharan, Palestinian etc. territories at the levels therein. The issue of less watchers and thus extra disruption on such articles also abounds. I would not see a problem with applying this consensus to all lvl-1 capital articles as well (though a more streamlined version would be preferred e.g. "country x-administered" rather than horning the whole dispute in) but I have always not been inline to support this application to divisions (lvl-2), districts (lvl-3) etc., a cumbersome process no one is willing to enforce (did propose a EPP on all Kashmir-related pages if such broad-reaching consensus is to be enforced). Gotitbro (talk) 11:03, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Gotitbro: Thanks for your response. I don't necessarily agree that the consensus was limited to the large subdivisions, as there was extensive discussion lasting nearly 10 days on the extensions of the proposal. See my reply to UnpetitproleX (above or below). In fact editors such as Kautilya3 were explicitly against limiting the NPOV wording to the large regions of Kashmir, as they thought the POV-promotion to exist more on the smaller, disregarded, pages. I will examine what the Western Saharan and Palestine pages to per your suggestion. Thanks again. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:39, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, @Gotitbro: for the response. That is also my main contention, a back-door application of almost five four year old consensus to a page where it has never been applied. Thereby putting articles not previously covered by that consensus into it. That’s something that would definitely require a wider discussion than just one editor’s “making uniform” spree. UnpetitproleX (talk) 21:43, 24 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Gotitbro is objecting to the extension of the consensus to divitions and district, not to capitals, as they say, "I would not see a problem with applying this consensus to all lvl-1 capital articles as well (though a more streamlined version would be preferred e.g. "country x-administered" rather than horning the whole dispute in)" Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:53, 25 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@UnpetitproleX: The discussions took place on WT:INDIA in August and September 2019, beginning with

• (i) my original announcement on 15 August 2019] and discussion
• (ii) More discussion Arbitrary break
• (iii)Rfc phrasing first cut on 17 August 2019 which extended the proposal to (a) Large regions (b) Administrative divisions (c) Districts and (d) District capitals
• (iv) A long discussion from 18 to 26 August 2019
• (v) RfC wording version 2 and discussion of 26 and 27th August 2019.
• (vi) Uniform format for infobox of Kashmir-related first-order division articles which lasted from 14 to 18 September 2019, and which was about maps in the first order subdivisions (after I had altered the previous CIA maps to show the new Indian divisions of August 2019)

All this involved a great deal of effort, especially during a time when I was working on readying the FA India for its Wikipedia front page appearance on Gandhi's 150th birth anniversary on 2 October 2019. I wrote several new sections and revised the whole FA, involving hundreds of edits.

For an effort that involved such levels of precision, I recommend that you not describe the discussion to have taken place "five years ago," "five year old," "five years ago" and "half a decade."

August and September 2019 to May 22, 2023 is three years and eight months. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:29, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And this was a period which began three months before COVID appeared and affected everyone's lives, including those of WP editors, and today is only 11 days after the COVID pandemic ended on 11 May 2023. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:46, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, my bad. Nearly four years it is, not five. Five is for how long it has been since an elected government ruled over the then-state, now UT. Must have confused the two. Or something. UnpetitproleX (talk) 21:46, 24 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It is not nearly four years, it is a little over three and a half years. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:30, 25 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't be familiar, casual, or flippant with me. What is "Or something?" Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:42, 25 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It has been more than 3.7 years, which I rounded off to “nearly four.” I apologise if that is flippant. UnpetitproleX (talk) 22:12, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It is "Or something" that is flippant if not also meaningless for talk page discussions. I am not your chat group friend. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:20, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• (responding to the ping) For those coming in late (as I am), here are the two versions of the lede sentence being discussed:

Version A: Srinagar (English: /ˈsriːnəɡər/ ^ⓘ, Kashmiri pronunciation: [siriːnagar]) is the largest city and the summer capital of Jammu and Kashmir, a region administered by India as a union territory and part of the larger disputed region of Kashmir.

and

Version B: Srinagar (English: /ˈsriːnəɡər/ ^ⓘ, Kashmiri pronunciation: [siriːnagar]) is the largest city and the summer capital of Jammu and Kashmir, India.

Even setting aside the RFC on the topic (mainly because I haven't refreshed my memory of what the exact scope of the consensus was), Version A reads better to me since it does a good job of presenting a complicated picture in a pretty succinct manner. For example, Version B forgets to mention that the Jammy and Kashmir referenced in the sentence is a union territory, which is simply necessary to state. And unlike, say, the lede sentence of Port Blair, here it would be better (in terms of neutrality) to say that J&K is a union territory "administered by India" rather than "of India", acknowledging the regional dispute. And as soon as we use that careful "administered by" phrasing, it behooves us to provide a link to the Kashmir dispute, so as to not leave the reader hanging. And once we do that, we are essentially back to the Version A language.

(TL;DR)  Unless there is a positive case made that Version B is preferable on it merits, I would recommend sticking with Version A. Abecedare (talk) 16:40, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you @Abecedare: for a cogently argued and to-the-point reply. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:50, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Abecedare: Here’s what Encyclopaedia Britannica says in the introductory paragraph of their Srinagar page: Srinagar, city, summer capital of Jammu and Kashmir union territory (Jammu is the winter capital), northern India, situated in the Kashmir region of the Indian subcontinent. The city lies along the banks of the Jhelum River at an elevation of 5,200 feet (1,600 metres) in the Vale of Kashmir. As for version B, I’m not married to its wording. But version A has its own problems too: it introduces the dispute in the first line with “the larger disputed region of Kashmir” but offers nothing on the dispute. Obviously, any detail about the dispute in the very first line would be highly undue and out of place. An alternative would be a footnote after “…by India as a UT.” UnpetitproleX (talk) 22:00, 24 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

But Britannica's flagship article Kashmir, not only begins with the dispute, but it has this up top:

Recent News

• May 22, 2023, 12:53 PM ET (AP)

• G20 delegates begin meeting in disputed Kashmir, with region's intense security largely out of view

• Delegates from the Group of 20 leading rich and developing nations began a meeting on tourism in Indian-controlled Kashmir on Monday that was condemned by China and Pakistan, as authorities reduced the visibility of security in the disputed region’s main city

• May 21, 2023, 11:26 PM ET (AP)

• With G20 event, India seeks to project normalcy in disputed Kashmir

• As India prepares to host a meeting of tourism officials from the Group of 20 in the disputed region of Kashmir, authorities have deployed elite commandos and stepped up security in the region’s largest city

In other words, not just China, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Indonesia which boycotted the even, but also the US, Canada, Mexico, UK, Germany, France, Italy, and Australia do not accept India's sovereignty over any portion of Kashmir, including the capital city. All have voted against India in UN Security council resolutions, many of which did not pass because the Soviet Union exercised its veto in support of Nehru's India. Every inch of the former princely state is disputed territory. How can we not mention that in the lead paragraph? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:07, 25 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The rest of the countries sent their local reps which is hardly an endorsement of anything. See:

• Zaman, Sarah (May 24, 2024), "India's Hosting of G20 Meeting in Disputed Kashmir Raises Questions of International Acceptance", Voice of America, While most countries sent just local staff to the tourism conference, Pakistani allies China, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Turkey skipped the event. However, only China, which also has a border dispute with neighboring India, issued a condemnation. ... Fernand de Varennes, U.N. special rapporteur on minority issues, recently criticized the meeting, saying that by hosting the session in Kashmir, "India is seeking to normalize what some have described as a military occupation.

Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:44, 25 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

To structure the lead based on “recent news” Associated Press reports about the G20 meeting would be WP:RECENTISM. It’s also deflecting from the Britannica Srinagar article, which does not mention the dispute, neither do Britannica’s Jammu, Leh or Gilgit articles. UnpetitproleX (talk) 21:05, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And as it turns out, Indonesia did attend the meeting, after all. But yes, the meeting is hardly the game changer that the Indian government contends it to be. UnpetitproleX (talk) 22:45, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am going to stay uninvolved and not express an opinion regarding the article (actually, I don't have an opinion as I am not sufficiently familiar with the background or the history of related discussions at Wikipedia). However, the first set of changes in UnpetitproleX's diff adds two flag icons in the infobox. I see an edit summary by Fowler&fowler with "no flagicons per Kashmir-infobox consensus of September 2019 and MOS:INFOBOXFLAG last sentence". I do not know what standard procedure is in this area, but F&F's edit summary looks plausible to me. @UnpetitproleX: Do you still want flags? What is the justification? Johnuniq (talk) 04:59, 23 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for replying, John.. I will wait until tomorrow (24th) morning my time (US Eastern) to give others a chance to reply and then propose something in light of the various responses, including yours. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 01:23, 24 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Johnuniq: There’s no question of what I want re:flags. If you look at my responses, or my edit summary here and here, the issue is something else. UnpetitproleX (talk) 22:28, 24 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The idiomatic phrase "there is no question of" means "there is no chance of something happening or of someone doing something." Please rephrase. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:48, 25 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Of course I can see that the main issue is something else. However, I believe it is useful to address simple things first, particularly when they have a concrete proposal (include a particular two flags in the infobox) and the guidelines should be reasonably clear. It's not a good sign that UnpetitproleX has not give an answer that addresses the point. Johnuniq (talk) 00:57, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The guidelines at MOS:INFOBOXFLAGS are clear: “where the status of the territory is subject to a political dispute, the consensus of editors at that article will determine whether flag use in the infobox is preferred or not.” The established consensus was to include them. They were removed on the basis of a consensus which had never been applied to this page. It is this invention of consensus rather than the removal of flags that I reverted. So the question of whether or not I want flags (much less whether I still want them) is irrelevant. I personally have no preference wrt flags. UnpetitproleX (talk) 23:34, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

How was the established consensus one of having the infobox flags in the towns when they were never a part of the Wikipedia articles on the regions of which the towns were the capitals? In the towns, there was no consensus, just occasional, scattered, editing, yielding a small handful of examples. It is nothing like the dozens and dozens of times over three years and eight months that the consensus on the large regions has been maintained. None of the editors you pinged to establish this consensus has replied, except Gotitbro, who has said he sees the extension the the capital cities to be unproblematic. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:11, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In light of

• (i) the existing consensus on the format of the lead sentences and info box of the large subregions of Kashmir, viz. Azad Kashmir, Gilgit-Baltistan, Jammu and Kashmir (union territory), Ladakh, and Aksai Chin, one that has proved capable of being repeatedly put to good use in the last three years and eight months,
• (ii) @Gotitbro:'s suggestion that the application of this consensus to the capital cities of these five regions—which was supported in August 2019, but not practically implemented thereafter on account of a lack of vigilance—is essentially unproblematic, especially if made more concise,
• (iii) @Abecedare: strong a priori argument about Wikipedia neutrality rules leaving us with no option than, for example: "the summer capital of Jammu and Kashmir, a region administered by India as a union territory and part of the larger disputed region of Kashmir."
• (iv) @Johnuniq:'s question, and remark, about infobox flag-icons, and
• (v) @Kautilya3:'s earlier views about the importance of the consensus extending to regions beyond the better-known, larger, regions, to the lesser-known divisions, districts, and capitals,
• I propose that the consensus be extended to capitals of Azad Kashmir (which is the city Muzaffarabad); Gilgit-Baltistan (which is Gilgit city); Jammu and Kashmir (union territory) (which is Srinagar (summer) and Jammu (winter)); and Ladakh (which is jointly Leh and Kargil (note: sparsely populated Aksai Chin does not have any capital) in the following format:

• Muzaffarabad/Gilgit/Srinagar/Jammu/Kargil/Leh is the capital/summer capital/winter capital/joint capital of   Pakistani/Indian/Chinese-administered     self-administrative territory/administrative territory/Union Territory   of Azad Kashmir/Gilgit-Baltistan/Jammu and Kashmir/Ladakh/Aksai Chin   in the disputed Himalayan region of Kashmir region. (corrected in light of Unprol*X's valid point about the incorrect use of "Himalayan." 23:31, 26 May 2023 (UTC))

I've left some horizontal spaces for ease of comprehension; they won't go in the actual text. By Abecedare's argument, the last noun phrase in the proposal (which could be changed with the use of a comma and some shuffling to the appositive, "a subregion of the disputed Himalayan region of Kashmir,") is essential: we can't leave the reader hanging with "—administered," without also addressing a reader's potential puzzlement over why it is only "administered" and not an integral part of. I will soon post something on the format of the infobox and further address Johnuniq's remarks. Best, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:10, 25 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox: You can see the NPOV infobox format for Srinagar [here. I will soon add the citations. Note I have changed the map to be consistent with the one in Delhi and the FA Darjeeling. We can't use the pushpin map (e.g. here) as it seems to insinuate sovereignty (besides the fact that it has very little information). I will make similar changes for the other capitals. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:20, 25 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Kashmir map Oh, and I just remembered something about the Kashmir-region map, File:Kashmir Region November 2019.jpg. This is a (relatively) lower-res CIA map which is based on a higher-res Library of Congress map. @Uanfala:, for example, had complained that the CIA map was not big enough in extent to give a reader a good idea of the geographical context. (There is a larger inset map of South Asia.) The problem with the LOC map was that it had the old labels from the time when the Kashmir region had not been administratively rearranged by the administering countries. About a year ago, I had updated that map to show the new divisions. It is displayed here. I would like to change the old map to this new one in the five large regions: Jammu and Kashmir (union territory), Ladakh, Azad Kashmir, Gilgit-Baltistan, and Aksai Chin. A-C in particular is much more precisely described in the new map, as is (I think) the Kashmir valley. My personal favorite was the eight-thousander Nanga Parbat whose dramatic Rupal face you can actually see on the map. (It should be somewhere below Gilgit). I recall @RegentsPark: had encouraged me to include the other 8000ers, which I have (all near K2).

I know some of these things should properly be done elsewhere (e.g. WT:INDIA where the original discussions had been held, but I'm flat out of time, and the iron is hot, or there is a tide in the affairs, so we must take it at the flood. If the spell is broken, by moving elsewhere, what's a guarantee that among the unfamiliars that discussion will not sputter, and the discussion will be set back by another year or two or three? Please grant me this benefaction. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:51, 25 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

PS I've added a second, interactive, map in the Jammu and Kashmir (union territory) page (see here). If you click on it you can immediately see the place of J&K in a much larger region. Uanfala had suggested that such a map might go first (up top) and the LOC/CIA map below, but I am reticent about doing that as we already have a longstanding consensus on the CIA map. Changing it to a high-res map on which it is based is a minor change, but essentially replacing it (as the primary) map with another map will create all sorts of issues, including the prospect of redoing the August 2019 consensus. I would rather let it sit as the second map below the LOC/CIA, for which there will be little objection. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:21, 25 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

PS2 I've now updated the lead sentences and infoboxes of the capitals, viz. Muzaffarabad, Gilgit, Srinagar, Jammu, Kargil, and Leh to conform to the format described above. None have flag icons in the infobox. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:32, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

PS3 I've also updated the large regions infoboxes: Azad Kashmir, Gilgit-Baltistan, Jammu and Kashmir (union territory), Ladakh, and Aksai Chin.. I believe you will like the hi-def LOC map as well as the interactive map in which the regions of interest appear shaded in gray. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:29, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

PS4 There are also no emblems, flags, or other markers or implications of sovereignty in the infoboxes.

Best, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:39, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose proposal in its current form;

• Unlike the administrative subdivisions, the existence of most of which is owed to the dispute and the conflict (for instance, would there be an “Azad” (free) Jammu&Kashmir without the dispute? No), these cities have existed for centuries before the conflict began and will outlive the dispute. Therefore to mention the dispute in the very first line at Leh or Gilgit or Srinagar or the others is highly WP:UNDUE. The dispute can be mentioned and explained in a footnote—including what this dispute is and who is involved—after the first sentence, and thereafter wherever relevant and due in the article(s).

This is amply reflected in reliable tertiary sources (like Britannica). Encyclopaedia Britannica’s articles on the capitals do not mention the dispute, the Kashmir article and the subdivision articles do. Here is what the lead paragraphs of those articles say: Srinagar “Srinagar, city, summer capital of Jammu and Kashmir union territory (Jammu is the winter capital), northern India, situated in the Kashmir region of the Indian subcontinent. The city lies along the banks of the Jhelum River at an elevation of 5,200 feet (1,600 metres) in the Vale of Kashmir.”; Jammu “Jammu, city, winter capital of Jammu and Kashmir union territory, northern India. It lies in the southwestern part of Jammu and Kashmir along the Tawi River, south of Srinagar (the summer capital), and to the north is the Siwalik Range.”; Leh “Leh, town, Ladakh union territory, northern India. The town is located in the valley of the upper Indus River at an elevation of 11,550 feet (3,520 metres), surrounded by the towering peaks of the Ladakh Range (a southeastern extension of the Karakoram Range).”; Gilgit “Gilgit, town in Gilgit-Baltistan, part of the Pakistani-administered sector of the Kashmir region, in the northern Indian subcontinent. It is situated in the Karakoram Range in a narrow valley on the Gilgit River at its confluence with the Hunza River and about 20 miles (32 km) upstream from its confluence with the Indus River.”; they do not have one for Muzzafarbad or Kargil town (but do for Kargil district/region).

• ”Himalayan region of Kashmir”? Leh lies in the Indus valley, in the trans-Himalayas of the Tibetan Plateau. Gilgit lies some miles north of the tri-junction of the Himalayas, the Hindu Kush and the Karakorams, in a valley wedged between the latter two. Jammu is located on the ridges of the Shivalik foothills and partly in the Punjab plain. Only Muzzafarabad, Srinagar and Kargil are in the vicinity of the Himalayas. UnpetitproleX (talk) 21:57, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The incorrect use of "Himalayan" is a valid point. Having drawn the maps File:The Indus river in the Kashmir region.jpg and File:Kashmir region. LOC 2003626427 - showing sub-regions administered by different countries.jpg, I should have known better, but we all have our bad days. So thank you, I have removed Himalayan from the six capitals' lead sentences and from the mini-proposal above. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:34, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It is true that Srinagar is a city with a history, but in Wikipedia we can't write: "Srinagar is a historical city in the Kashmir region," as its primary notability today that it is the summer capital of an Indian administered region." As user:Abecedare has explained we can't write "Srinagar is the capital of the union territory of Jammu and Kashmir, India," as that would violate neutrality; we can't also write, "Srinagar is the capital of the Indian-administered union territory of Jammu and Kashmir," for we would be leaving the reader puzzling about why it is only administered.

Britannica's articles on these cities and towns are written by general purpose editors. As for recentism, there are plenty references, which are scholarly, and not recent, which refer to the Kashmir dispute in the context of Srinagar. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:46, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Britannica's article on Srinagar begins with two bullets

• "Recent News May 22, 2023, 12:53 PM ET (AP)

G20 delegates begin meeting in disputed Kashmir, with region's intense security largely out of view

Delegates from the Group of 20 leading rich and developing nations began a meeting on tourism in Indian-controlled Kashmir on Monday that was condemned by China and Pakistan, as authorities reduced the visibility of security in the disputed region’s main city

• May 21, 2023, 11:26 PM ET (AP)

With G20 event, India seeks to project normalcy in disputed Kashmir

As India prepares to host a meeting of tourism officials from the Group of 20 in the disputed region of Kashmir, authorities have deployed elite commandos and stepped up security in the region’s largest city

and then:

Srinagar, city, summer capital of Jammu and Kashmir union territory (Jammu is the winter capital), northern India, situated in the Kashmir region of the Indian subcontinent.

You should ask them why they have such a clear example of recentism up top.

We also can't use "Indian subcontinent," as it is dated usage these days, South Asia being preferred except in a small handful of geophysics-related situations. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:58, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

“You should ask them why they have such a clear example of recentism up top.” I didn’t ask them, but I’m guessing it is because it is under a small section titled “Recent news”, located at top of the page. UnpetitproleX (talk) 00:12, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Can you produce some of these Srinagar specific scholarly tertiary sources that contradict the Britannica examples? UnpetitproleX (talk) 00:13, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As already pointed out by @Gotitbro: this is akin to “horning the dispute in” which they suggested against. And what Abecedare said is that “behooves us to provide a link to the Kashmir dispute, so as to not leave the reader hanging.” The reader is still left hanging about the dispute, without context on what it is and who is involved. UnpetitproleX (talk) 00:17, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Abecedare said: "here it would be better (in terms of neutrality) to say that J&K is a union territory "administered by India" rather than "of India", acknowledging the regional dispute. And as soon as we use that careful "administered by" phrasing, it behooves us to provide a link to the Kashmir dispute, so as to not leave the reader hanging. And once we do that, we are essentially back to the Version A language.

(TL;DR) Unless there is a positive case made that Version B is preferable on it merits, I would recommend sticking with Version A (which is my version: "a region administered by India as a union territory and part of the larger disputed region of Kashmir.")." I suggest that you make that positive case for something which thus far you have not.

I thank you for the point about "Himalayan" but beyond that you have offered no cogent argument. I will now not be responding to your points Unpe*X, but will await replies from others. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:29, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]