Wikipedia:Village pump (policy): Difference between revisions

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It went to this additional archive so I don't end up actually deleting any discussions. Sorry if I accidentally archived a discussion in progress. My sincere apologies, and feel free to put it back here.

All those playing nomic with wikipedia guidelines are hereby informed that they have won. All those playing calvinball, you too, you've won. Congratulations. Now get the heck out of here so we can get back to writing an encyclopedia.

The current wikipedia process is so darn acidic that even experienced mediators who have seen it all have left. This includes people like Nicholas Turnbull and Redwolf24. Only experienced usenetters hold on for longer periods of time, and now even they are getting quesy.

People with established wikireputations get pounded on and driven off by people who are CLEARLY and OBVIOUSLY not here to write an encyclopedia.

I've seen featured article writers quit, I have seen them walk out of wikimeets.

And I am telling you now. This has gone too far. The buck stops here.

Who's with me?

Kim Bruning 13:42, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

When Wikipedia was a few people, the people were mostly quality. Large groups of people with easy access will invariably have a small group creating a lot of trouble. It seems to be the nature of mankind. Requiring registration would help (my opinion) but would not reduce Wikipedia quality. As Wikipedia grows larger and more popular, the problem will grow worse because beanbrains will disrupt and disperse honest efforts. In societies, police are established, on Wikipedia, (my opinion) we are going to need registration and dedicated policing-type people because there are people who know with certainty that knowledge should be destroyed. Terryeo 15:41, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is neither support nor opposition; I'm sick of the terms. This is to state, here and now; that those who are here to write a free content encyclopaedia will always have my firm support. And that's the short and tall of it. Rob Church (talk) 13:48, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Relax a little :) Forget about the policy pages for a while. Forget about all the litigation and silly arguing going on and go back to editing articles for a while. Last month mainspace edits were 2% of your contributions - make Wikipedia space edits 2% of your contributions and your wiki-health will improve! :) Haukur 14:02, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There's no point if I'm going to have to fight every step of the way anyway. It's gotten trickier and trickier to even get people to recognise that maybe there's such a thing as an encyclopedia out there. "Policy" trumps encyclopedia every time, and good editors leave in disgust. Note how "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia" is considered funny by some people around here. Fine, laugh, but then apply it, dang you! :-) Kim Bruning 14:59, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's kind of hard to ignore the policy pages with so many editors, on the one hand, trying to change the rules so they can insert their POV edits, and other editors, on the other hand, wanting to tie WP up in increasingly complex rules. And then there are the trolls filling up the talk pages. I try to ignore them, but I still feel I have to stay aware and not let them slip in changes that no one else has agreed to. I try to support anything that advances WP in conformance with the three content-guiding policies. I try to oppose anything that detracts from that. I agree with Robchurch that we are here to write an encyclopedia, and I get impatient with the obstacles. -- Donald Albury (Dalbury)^(Talk) 14:36, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There's something to that - while you look away someone changes the rules :) Instruction creep is rampant. Just yesterday the following proposals were upgraded to guidelines (since downgraded again):

• Wikipedia:Naming conventions (standard letters with diacritics)
• Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Czech)
• Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Swedish)
• Wikipedia:Naming conventions (hockey)

This is a well-intentioned effort to split up a thorny problem but it's awfully complicated. Basically: "Use diacritics in names if some complicated criteria are fullfilled. Unless it's a Czech or Swedish person in which case you should definitely use diacritics. Unless it's a hockey player in which case you definitely shouldn't." Haukur 15:06, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing that a little editing won't fix! Let's apply the well-practised rule from poetry that removing the last line of the poem improves the poem. Indeed, applying this rule recursively is essential to producing good poetry. Having said that, I propose the following improvement: "Use diacritics." Hope this helps. -- Mareklug ^talk 17:47, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Speaking as a member of WP:HOCKEY, we didn't push Wikipedia:Naming conventions (hockey) as anything but an internal project guideline. It was elevated (not by a project member) because we were finding articles we'd started all of a sudden winding up as redirects with diacritic markings and generally impinging on our carefully-tread order. Naming conventions for Czech, Swedish, Finnish etc were all created by the same user who created WP:Naming (hockey) as an attempt to make us all use diacritics when we create articles about people from those countries, and as a statement that "it's going to happen anyway despite your wishes, so deal with it."  RasputinAXP  c 17:59, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Err, I think I'm with you, Kim, but I'm not really sure what you're talking about... android79 14:39, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, the nomic is over. However, there is still a focus. I also wanted to leave, but I do continue to have a focus on article validation for accreditation purposes and how to implement the ideas. That focus does infringe upon matters that affect mainstream articles. Further, in the words that started article validation: 07:45, 6 June 2004 "Some potential expert editors refuse to edit, because they think their content will be damaged by vandals or non-experts. Providing a checking service might help them feeling more confident with the process." I've put a lot of time in on work within a small range of articles. I hate to see valid contributions by any editor lost so easily, and for those editors to be discouraged that they would leave or be banned. I hate to see Wikipedia become "the encyclopedia of the sum of human knowledge minus one". — Dzonatas 15:18, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to propose a new rule that Wikipedia editors not be allowed to give up on the project out of frustration unless there is a clear consensus for that editor being allowed to leave. Also, I would like to nominate the Wikipedia: namespace for deletion on the grounds that it is disruptive. -Silence 15:32, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm am sorry, but if you want to nominate that for deletion, you have to do so in triplicate and notify all one million contributors of the change on their talk page. You also need to hold a discussion, an unofficial poll, an official poll, a vote, and a tea party before the motion can be carried. Don't forget to notify the village pump, the announcements page, the community portal, Wikizine, The Signpost, all 28 IRC channels, the Arbitration Committee, the Mediation Committee, the Mediation Cabal, Esperanza and BJAODN before starting any discussion. Thanks -- sannse (talk) 17:59, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ooh, for the tea party, can we invite everyone over for a Boston tea party?, everyone can come dressed as indians! Kim Bruning 18:10, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Shouldn't that be dressed as indigenous peoples of North America of the Eastern Woodlands culture?

I think I will just stick a feather in my cap and call it macaroni. But I will point out that the easiest way around all those rules and regulations is simply to perform a military coup. Do you think a bunch of computer geeks are going to protest if you bust into the Wikipedia server room with a machine gun? —Mike 03:31, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, I am with you, Kim. But do you have any plan to "stop the buck", as it were? DanielDemaret 21:54, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This new question got archived, so I'll repost it:

You say you've forbidden us to see deleted edits in articles' histrories, because users write foul stuff in the edit summaries.

But, if I go ahead and register User:Joe Smith rapes baby donkeys, won't it dangle forever on the block log? Or will you deny everyone access to the block log from now on? --tyomitch 15:36, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Aside from this concern, the concealing policy has one very, very damaging effect: it takes the deletion notices, especially speedy deletions, off user watchlists. There are overaggressive editors and admins whacking valid articles with speedy and prod tags, and editors who are interested in the subjects and could easily improve the articles given a chance -- but not everybody makes daily visits to Wikipedia. For speedy tagging, it's even worse; an article can vanish almost tracelessly in 15 minutes. Monicasdude 15:56, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that user contributions for deleted pages should not be concealed. Perhaps non-admin user edit comments can be auto-deleted? I think concealing this does more harm than good. -- Y Ynhockey || Talk Y 21:41, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, so out of those who chose to express their opinion above, there is a clear consensus.

Admins! Please give us back our deleted histories! Their concealment won't stop calumniators, but it does bring us confusion and fret. --tyomitch 19:11, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have a problem with the word "cheats" in the name of this category Category:Drugs cheats in sport and its subcategories. Some people who have been disqualified for doping (and are listed under this category or its subcategory, such as Olga Pyleva) were not cheats at all but alledgedly accidental victims of ingestion of a banned chemical.

At the top of the category page it is stated that such people may be listed in this category ("and/or 2. Publicly admitted such use.") -- note the "or": they may have *not* admitted such use.

Also, if anything, it should be "Drug cheats" not "Drugs cheats".

Could we change the category name(s) to something more NPOV like Category:Doping cases in sport? If so, could someone carry out this renaming? -- Mareklug ^talk 15:40, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This was previously discussed at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Category:Drugs cheats in athletics in 2004, where it was inexplicably left as "unresolved" despite what appears to be a consensus in favor of deleting the category outright. I'm still perplexed by the phrase "drugs cheats." Because of the inability to frame a concise category title that functions as an objective and clear classification, this is the kind of grouping that's better maintained as an annotated list. It should be listed again on CFD. Postdlf 15:47, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, in the current form the cat name may even be subject to libel. You should renominate it on CFD for renaming the section. --Gurubrahma 16:32, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I put it on WP:CFD#Category:Drugs cheats in sport, proposing to rename it to "Doping cases in sport", mentioning this discussion and the fact that it was considered for deletion. -- Mareklug ^talk 20:27, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Wikipedia:Naming conventions (hockey) - Should Wikipedia:Naming conventions (hockey) become a naming conventions guideline? --Francis Schonken 17:38, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No. And neither should any other existing proposed guidelines concerning the use of diacritics. Diacritics should be used, period. Just as words should be correctly spelled, etc. There is no need for such guidelines. -- Mareklug ^talk 17:57, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Diacritics should be used, period. That sounds a lot like a guideline to me. android79 18:46, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A guideline? The formulation proposed by Mareklug is policy stuff. No problem: Wikipedia:Naming policy (diacritics) --Francis Schonken 20:12, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I hope you're just being silly. android79 20:20, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If Mareklug is convinced that is the rule we should abide by, I'm convinced (s)he'll show us it is based on consensus. No unwritten rules, please! --Francis Schonken 20:25, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Err... okay... let's not make our points in this manner, eh? android79 20:28, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I maybe did (the point thing I mean), for which I apologise. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (standard letters with diacritics) was the seriously meant proposal. But it started to attract "point" people. So here's my proposal: why don't you have a look at that proposal, and see for yourself whether it's any better than Mareklug's rule. Anyway, the Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Wikipedia:Naming conventions (hockey) RfC has been concluded. --Francis Schonken 00:17, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know whether we have consensus to always use diacritics or not, but I'm certain we can establish the consensus for hockey player biographies to follow the same naming convention as other biographies. Zocky | picture popups 03:28, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I researched a bit, and this is truly preposterous. We have Jaroslav Hašek and Dominik Hasek although both of them have the same last name. The fact that somebody plays hockey has nothing to do with their name. Zocky | picture popups 03:36, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Mareklug says Diacritics should be used, period, and I say "Diacritics should not be used, full stop." (just semi-joking). This topic has been done to death at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (use English) with two views on the subject almost as polarised as that in the first sentence I just wrote. Francis Schonken's attempt is to try to solve the problem is to salami slice it, and although I give him credit for trying, I think the whole approach is floored. The reason for this is that we will end up with dozens and dozens of small guidelines for specific areas and they will be in conflict with each other (as does the proposed guideline Wikipedia:Naming conventions (hockey) and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Czech) (another of Francis's new proposed guidelines)). We would need to maintain a matrix of guidelines with weightings just to work out what the Wikipedia guideline for naming a particular page was.

At the moment the consensus (or lack of it) for naming pages with or without diacritics is kept in one place WP:UE, (There are a couple of exceptions to no agreed rule about diacritics, but they are both academic areas where a good case has been argued for having a rule and they are not going to overlap into other areas). If there is a dispute over a page name then as often as not it ends up on WP:RM and can be considered on a case by case basis. It is not perfect but given the size Wikipedia, it seems to work reasonably well as a compromise between the two views over names with diacritics.--Philip Baird Shearer 18:47, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The image illustrating Hobart Freeman was uploaded as a fair use image, but wouldn't the fair use only apply if the image were illustrating an article about the book whose cover art the image came from? Illustrating the article about the person would seem to be a violation of the fair use doctrine. User:Zoe|^(talk) 18:21, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hm. The image description page says it's the author image from the back of the book cover, so I'd say it's an okay fair use image, but {{bookcover}} is the wrong image tag (since a book front cover is a graphical design and not just a photograph in most cases). It should use {{fairusein}} plus a good rationale. IANAL-- grm_wnr Esc 19:14, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

if the same image is really on all his books you could probably fairly tag it promo (or explain that it is a promo image using fairusein). Arniep 01:25, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to jump on this train and ask a similar/related question. Stills from films and other footage - fair use allows us to use a still frame to illustrate the film/character it shows, but what about the actor? Is this pushing it too far? Example - whilst thinking about getting a new lead image for Eric Clapton's page, I thought it might be an idea to use a screen capture from Tommy, but thought it wouldn't be covered by fair use as the page has very little to do with the film. Any thoughts? - MightyMoose22 00:42, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A film still would be appropriate if it is placed close to some halfway detailed discussion of the role or film in question - e.g., just a mention in a list of appearances wouldn't cut it, in my opinion, and neither would using it somewhere else in the article. Since the lead of the Clapton article does not mention Tommy (and probably shouldn't, since it's hardly one of the things Clapton's most famous for), I'd not use a film still there - in fact, a fair use/promotional (as is used now - I can't see what's wrong with it, by the way, except that the image information is somewhat lacking) or even free image of a person of Clapton's caliber shouldn't be too hard to come by. -- grm_wnr Esc 23:05, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I removed these two images Image:Claptonprofile.jpg, Image:Claptonsixties.jpg as we have two similar free images so we don't really have a good fair use argument, plus the fact that the images don't have info on the copyright holder or original source. Arniep 01:30, 5 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Aaron suggested that I raise my concern about Infoboxes here. The original discussion can be found here. I believe Infoboxes have the effect of corporate advertising. They look like magazine ads, especially when the corporate logo is placed at the top. Also placing a box around particular facts privileges them by drawing attention of the eye: the current Infobox template does not include facts that would be of interest to labor (OSHA violations) or small investors (SEC violations, class action suits, etc.). These infoboxes currently cannot be removed without risk of Admin blocking because the people who place them (in the case I'm involved with, a corporate employee) can appeal to "policy" and "precedent". Does the Encyclopedia Britannica feature corporate logos? Using infoboxes to extend a corporation's brand campaign amounts to using Wikipedia for free advertising. I think the promotional aspect would be instantly recognized if a person posted their picture on an article with a list that highlighted laudatory facts. If infoboxes cannot be outright discouraged, it should at least be legal for a dissenting editor to remove them. --Pansophia 23:38, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree that infoboxes look like advertising, for one thing all company infoboxes contain the same basic factual information. Items like OSHA, SEC violations, if relevent, can be added in the company specific article, but I don't see any valid reason for a dissenting editor to remove verifible, factual information. There is no field in the infobox for "laudatory facts". Facts are facts. However, if the fields are filled in with more than just the information (e.g. "Revenue $xm, (best in the industy") then the field info should be corrected, but the infobox should remain. MartinRe 00:09, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with MartinRe. -- Kjkolb 02:05, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Let's not withhold information from readers out of fear that we "look like" something we're not. Clearly our infoboxes are not ads, as long as they present the same information for each company in the same way. As I've said before, I believe your real complaint is that our infoboxes are promoting capitalism. This isn't true, unless you think our movie articles are promoting moviegoing and our sports articles are promoting sports events. Rhobite 22:17, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just to clarify my position, I'm not against capitalism. I'm against various abuses fostered by capitalism and very much for ethical capitalism. I am against corporate propaganda - especially when businesses exploit free media. Infoboxes propogate brands because the information is a) highlighted in a special, prominent box, and b) conveyed through a visual cue. The top right placement of the Infobox is the most desirable position and displaces any other image that could be placed there. I also disagree that "facts are facts" as far as Infoboxes are concerned: the selection of facts favors corporate interests. --Pansophia 01:28, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Is this the most appropriate place for this? If the purpose is general discussion about "Infoboxes as Corporate Branding", then probably. But if the purpose is the specific removal or addition of fields to the Template:Infobox Company, then proposals for such removal/additions belong at Template talk:Infobox Company. Furthermore, the use of logos on Wikipedia, such as in Wikipedia:Templates, is guidelined by the contents of Wikipedia:Logos. If the purpose is to change policy guidelines regarding the use of logos on Wikipedia, then such a proposal belongs at Wikipedia talk:Logos. Kurieeto 19:36, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I just read with interest about the controversy, the wheel warring, the suspensions, and the eventual actions of the ArbCom that took place in early February over the matter of some userboxes Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2006-02-06/Userbox warring, Wikipedia:Deletion review/Userbox debates, and Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Pedophilia userbox wheel war. I do not want to discuss those events. I want to discuss the matter of the ultimate authority for other wikis.

The ArbCom when ruling on that dispute, mentioned among the principles that it had agreed on and that it considered when coming up with its "findings of fact," that "Jimbo Wales has ultimate authority on Wikimedia projects, as a foundation issue that is beyond debate." I am fine and I agree with this. However here is my question: what about the other wikis? Who is the ultimate authority on the projects in French, Spanish, Thai, Korean, etc, etc.? Are those wikis left to fend for themselves and sort out things alone? Suppose a situation similar to that of the userbox above happens in another wiki, and the end result is very diffeent than the one here; say they end up allowing that kind of userbox to stay and they don't delete it. Is there a way to escalate the issue from one of those wikis to this one, the english one -which by virtue of being the mother wiki, the first one ever, I assume would also have ultimate authority over the other ones. If this is correct, how are things escalated? BTW, I do not know of any issue that would warrant such action. I ask just as the result of intellectual curiosity. Thanks. Anagnorisis 05:05, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Jimbo is also the ultimate authority on them. Since to be created, they had to interact with the English-speaking staff of Wikimedia and Meta, there is very likely an English-speaking ombudsman to translate for him in the rare case this is needed. However, since every Wikipedia is different and has different rules, this may not be an issue on them. The German, Polish, etc. Wikipediae administrations may not have a problem with userboxes, or have certainly not had the nasty fight over them. --Golbez 06:19, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I am using the userboxes was only an example. Not an example to be considered specifically: like discussing they having userboxes or not. When and how it is appropriate to escalate issues and bring them here? Say there is a serious dispute, in one of those wikis, can I bring it to the ArbCom here? Under what conditions? --Anagnorisis 06:47, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So far as I know, the ArbCom only has jurisdiction over the English Wikipedia. Other Wikipediae large enough have their own ArbComs, created as needed, I think. --Golbez 06:49, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Does that mean that the buck stops at those other languages ArbCom? Then that would mean the english Wiki cannot overturn a decission at another Wiki if it is found extreme by the members of this one? Intersting. --Anagnorisis 07:29, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The English Wikipedia has no jurisdiction over other language Wikipediae, period. Only Wikimedia does, and so far as I know, the only universal guideline is to maintain NPOV. --Golbez 07:57, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ok. Understood. So I guess it would then be to Wikimedia to resolve very extreme things. Yes, I have noticed that different wikies have different policies. Some things, like copyright issues (what is allowed in one is not on another), differ a lot from one wiki to another which can be annoying at times -but that is another topic. Thanks for the info. Cheers. --Anagnorisis 08:02, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The only requirement for copyrights is, I believe, that they conform to US/Florida law, since that is where the servers and foundation are located. However, some (particularly the Japanese Wikipedia) have chosen a stricter standard, in ja's case, to conform to Japanese copyright law, just to protect those who work on the pedia. Fair use, for example, is not allowed on ja, I don't believe. --Golbez 18:36, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I know that using copyrighted text, like copyrighted anything, is against the rules- but what if you find a website that isn't copyrighted, and it has the info you need: can you copy the text and paste it here unchanged? Andrewdt85 09:14, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It would have to be explicitly non-copyrighted/public domain - all material in American law is considered copyrighted when published, it needs no notice. --Golbez 09:21, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Products of the United States government generally are not copyrighted, however, and I have copied from U.S. Coast Guard sites a couple of times with only minimal editing. And, of course, anything on which copywrite has expired, such as the 1911 edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica, is fair game. But, these are well defined and very explicit exceptions, and you cannot assume something is in the public domain simply because no copyright notice is visible. And even some material produced by the U.S. government is copyrighted, so always check the status. Oh, and if you do copy public domain material, make it clear in the References section that you have done so (see {{1911}}, for example). -- Donald Albury (Dalbury)^(Talk) 12:03, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion, unless it's common knowledge or you yourself are the source of the information, add a footnote to the site/book/etc. you got the information from, even if you changed the wording and all that. Amina 01:39, 5 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any particular way that you usually quote someone in an article? I just said

According to author ---- ----: "-------"

Is this right? Andrewdt85 09:14, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Would replacing 3RR with 1RR for non-logged users be useful for Wikipedia ? Hopefully it would reduce the number of revert wars at no extra cost. If someone insists of revert-warring, let him at least register. --_Lysy^talk 10:48, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Many editors choose to contribute without creating an account, and this would penalize them simply because they don't have an account. As the ability to edit by anyone is an important principal in Wikipedia, I do't think this restriction on reverts will gain much support. It would be difficult to enforce, in any case, as many anon editors would not be aware of the rule. There would be many violations of a 1RR, with many unproductive blocks, if enforced. -- Donald Albury (Dalbury)^(Talk) 12:23, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The ability to edit by anyone- yes, but revert ? You're right about the diffulty of implementation. How about not encouraging anonymous users to revert by not providing the link to edit past version instead ? --_Lysy^talk 12:51, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see the need to do this, or any major benefit. You'll need to present strong arguments to convince enough editors to get a consensus on this proposal. -- Donald Albury (Dalbury)^(Talk) 13:00, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]