podcast
The Axe Files with David Axelrod
David Axelrod, the founder and director of the University of Chicago Institute of Politics, and CNN bring you The Axe Files, a series of revealing interviews with key figures in the political world. Go beyond the soundbites and get to know some of the most interesting players in politics.
Ep. 593 — DeMar DeRozan
The Axe Files with David Axelrod
Sep 12, 2024
DeMar DeRozan is a six-time NBA All Star and an Olympic gold medalist. But perhaps the defining legacy of his career will be his decision to speak out about his struggles with depression and mental health. He joined David to talk about growing up in Compton, California, surrounded by both gang violence and a strong, loving family; basketball as an escape; his drive to excel; the importance of speaking out about mental health; and his new book, “Above the Noise: My Story of Chasing Calm.”
Episode Transcript
Intro
00:00:05
And now from the Institute of Politics at the University of Chicago and CNN Audio, The Axe Files with your host, David Axelrod.
David Axelrod
00:00:16
DeMar DeRozan is an incredibly gifted athlete, a six time NBA All Star, now with the Sacramento Kings. I've enjoyed watching him light up the court these past three seasons for my Chicago Bulls. But he's also a hero off the court by publicly sharing his struggles with depression and the value of treatment. DeRozan has given hope to millions who suffer in silence that can be deadly. Now he's written a powerful and poignant memoir, "Above The Noise" My Story of Chasing Calm." In it, he opens up about the scars he still bears from the death and loss he witnessed on the streets of Compton, California, as a kid and his lifelong journey to overcome them. Here's that conversation. DeMar, it is great to see you. We already missed you in Chicago. And the season hasn't even started yet. But you are a great a great presence around our town.
DeMar DeRozan
00:01:15
Man, I appreciate that. Thank you so much.
David Axelrod
00:01:17
And I am a Bulls season ticket holder since before you were born. But I really. And we will will touch on basketball here. But there's so much more to your book, "Above the Noise: My Story of Chasing Calm." And I really want to delve into your story and ask you about growing up in Compton and your folks and your family. Let's start there.
DeMar DeRozan
00:01:46
Born and raised in Compton, California. Born in 1989. I grew up in a very, very big family. I was very family oriented, had a lot of uncles, aunties, cousins, you know, grandmother, grandfather, down to, you know, your somewhat typical, you know, family idea. You know, what you would think. Had my mom and dad, grew up with them, you know, raised me from the start. So growing up, you know, as a kid, you know, I just thought, you know, I was living the kid life of not really understanding the struggles that I kind of grew up in, because I was surrounded by so much love with my family. Now, that was kind of one thing I always leaned on was, you know, everything family, holidays, you know, weekends, you know, going to grandma house, she cooking for all her grandkids, her kids. No. So I grew up very family, family oriented. You know, my my dad was from Louisiana, small town in Louisiana, called Vidalia. He moved to L.A., probably in his early 20s, met my mom. And, you know, ever since then, you know, the journey began, you know. So it all started for me in Compton, California.
David Axelrod
00:03:04
But the picture you paint of your family life is a little different than the atmosphere in Compton. And talk a little bit about that, because it's such a vivid picture in your book. And I think it describes the experience of a lot of young people on the South Side of Chicago and other places living that today. So talk a little bit about that.
DeMar DeRozan
00:03:30
For sure. I think when you grow up in an environment you, you know, young, it's hard to tell what's really right from wrong because you you you grown up in an environment that you kind of adapt into at a young age. So it becomes such a norm to you. You know.
David Axelrod
00:03:48
You have nothing to compare it to really.
DeMar DeRozan
00:03:49
Yeah, you exactly. You have nothing to compare to, but that's all you know. So you understand, you know, in that moment you're looking at it like, you know, it's like this everywhere. Until you start to see, you know, certain shows, movies and, you know, you start to compare, you know, why my house don't look like this person's house or, you know why we don't have that car that you barely you know, you see a nice car driving by you like we don't have a nice car. Why we don't have a nice car. You know, as you get older. So for me, you know, it was you don't know the obstacles that, you know, when you hang with your uncle, you know, you just excited to hang with your uncle. But you know, you don't know he's a gang member. You know, you just think you just look at it like, that's an uncle. You know, same with cousins, same with friends. You just look at them as your safe haven in a sense because that's all you know, you don't, you don't comprehend the level of existence of what you really grown up in when you grow up in the inner city. And that's kind of what it was for me for for a long time. And, you know, basketball kind of showed me the different sides of life where, you know, I remember the first time I played in a basketball gym that had a C in it, and it was 30, 45 minutes from where I was from, but it felt like I was in another, you know, state somewhat. You know, the court was clean, the baskets was nice. You start to just pay attention, to pay attention to a lot of things, and you start to realize, you know, I don't have this or I don't have that, you know, because of the area that I grew up in. So it was a lot of that going on for me when I when.
David Axelrod
00:05:35
You mentioned your uncles, you you lost your one of your uncles who was a gang banger who was killed. You lost a number of of of friends, including a very close friend. You saw a lot of violence. And that violence was sort of an everyday fact of life for you growing up.
DeMar DeRozan
00:05:57
For sure. And, you know, to think about, to think back on it, you know, especially, you know, I was working on the book, you know, you start to realize how, you know, a lot of these kids fall victim to a lot of things. It's not their fault, because it's all you know, you don't have an outlet to be able to grow to understand more and want more. It's easy to get stuck in in a place that you grew up in. And that's kind of what it was for me. I just remember wanting more. And, you know, me being able to play sports gave me the ability to see more and have a, you know, obsession of wanting to make it out, because I scene where, you know, me just playing basketball took me to a tournament that was 30, 40, 40, 30, 45 minutes away, but everything was completely different. I remember the first time I with the Vegas for playing basketball. I thought I was, you know, it felt like I went to another country, you know, just seeing all the lights and everything. So it's it's so easy when you normalize the aggression that you grow up in.
David Axelrod
00:07:00
You know, you talk about going to another state, but when you live in a place like Compton, and the same is true in in on the South Side of Chicago and in cities all across this country. You know, you have to think of it in terms of gang turf, the Crips and the Bloods. And you don't want to wander into the wrong area because that could be fatal.
DeMar DeRozan
00:07:21
Yeah.
David Axelrod
00:07:22
'If you do, what does it do to a kid to see all this violence? It's something I think about all the time when I'm watching the news. And how does that work on a--it feels like you've been trying to resolve that all your life.
DeMar DeRozan
00:07:38
For sure. I mean, that's that's the tough part about it because, you know, you was able to process and understand, you know, death before you understood, you know, algebra or understood, you know, your history of, you know, human existence in a sense. You you, you process two blocks from here is another, another gang. You know what street to take, which street not to take. You know, you you knew all of these survival tactics in the aggressive neighborhood before you even you know really know how to count to ten. You know, in a sense, I just remember being a kid just saying, no, don't go there because, you know, these type of people hanging here, don't go to this gas station or walk down the street. You know, this was imbedded at a younger age before you could even comprehend everything else that was going on in life. Like, you know, I could point to every single hood in Compton before I could point to, you know, the the the state capital of California. You know, when you grew up that way, it kind of you know, it kind of, it normalized all the wrong things and wait until you're too old, you don't see nothing else. so it's easy to just get trapped.
David Axelrod
00:08:59
'One of the things that really grabbed me about all this, and one of the reasons I asked you about the impact of all of this is and one of the reasons I care about mental illness is something people who listen to this podcast regularly know, which is I lost my dad to suicide. My dad grew up in Eastern Europe and during the anti-Jewish pogroms there, and the description of his growing up was not unlike the description of your growing up. He used to have to step over bodies. His ultimately his home was blown up, which is why they they fled. He never, ever talked about it. He never talked. I learned a lot about it from his cousins and others, but he just kept that bottled up for the rest of his life. And so, you know, he died in New York City. But I kind of think he started to die in that little village in Ukraine because he saw horrible things that no child should see. I'm absolutely sure that my father had PTSD that was never treated. You know, I mean, you can't be a little child and step over dead bodies and you can't have your house blown up while you're in it and and have it not affect you.
DeMar DeRozan
00:10:15
'1,000% in that, you know, and I see it now because, you know, I always was a kid that that would sit and listen to the, you know, the older guys in the neighborhood that you see standing outside the liquor store or on the corner, you listen to the stories that they talk about. You know, for me, I always was a kid to always wonder, why are you standing out here or why this or why, I always had those why questions when I seen a lot of those guys. And it made me realize like, if I go to route that--obviously the route he took didn't work, and I didn't want to end up here. But I used to really listen to those guys more than anything because they had an insight on, you know, a lot of things that put them in a place that they was in, you know, whether being an alcoholic or drug addict. You know, it was so much that I learned from those type of people because of the pain that they, you know, had to go through that they never shared. They coped it with doing all the wrong, wrong things. So for me, you know, I forever will understand what it's like growing up, you know, not having much, not having nothing, losing people that was close to you, you know, seeing somebody getting shot, hearing gunshots, you know. Understanding when you hear gunshots how to get on the floor, normalizing that, knowing that, you know, when you hear sirens, you know if it's the fire truck or if it's a police car. A lot of those, you know, emotions that went on. And the more you kind of internalize and hold that in, you know, it'll play, it'll play on you as you as you get older. So it was always big for me to always want to express and kind of make myself vulnerable to that, to shed that light, because we all go through something, you know, and, and, and don't hold it in, because that's when it, you know, become detrimental.
David Axelrod
00:12:12
Yeah. Well, you you talk a lot in this book about the impact that it had you on you for years later, the way you you were so concerned about, not concerned about, but so fearful of loss that it affected your ability to get close to people. And then you talk about this recurring nightmare that you had. Talk about that. That was really striking to me.
DeMar DeRozan
00:12:38
Yeah. You know, all of it obviously stemmed when I was a kid. You know, I just remember times where the worst thing can happen. I just remember being a kid, just sitting there, you know, showing no emotion. Because one, I couldn't process exactly what was going on, I didn't understand what was going on. I just know something extremely bad that I wouldn't what happen to me happened. And, you know, over time, you know, you start to see certain things and it take you back to those moments of when you see, you know, if it was, you know, someone getting shot to death, whatever that may be, and it plagues on your mind or your conscious and your subconscious, you know, and that it started to do that to me a lot as I got older and got older because a lot of these things that I see, one, I never talk to nobody about it, you know, I'm just internalizing it. It's on my mind. But, you know, at the time when it happened, I couldn't process it. So it was just sitting on my conscious. By the time, you know, I lay down and go to sleep, you know, it's kind of like some scenes in a movie where you have to flashback moments in, in, in, you know, you see everything so vivid. And, you know, I used to suffer from that a lot of, you know, not fully understanding a lot of moments that I that I went through that, you know, no kid with an undeveloped mind should have to go through.
David Axelrod
00:14:01
Yeah. You talk about the older people who helped guide you. One of them was an uncle who was in prison. Uncle Chico. I don't know if he's actually an uncle, but that's what you called.
DeMar DeRozan
00:14:16
My uncle, one of my uncle that was a you know, was a gang member. He ended up getting killed. And it kind of, I remember, it just took a hit on the family, devastated the family. And at his time, Chico kind of stepped in. There was was was a part of the family in a sense of, you know, he we not knowing what activity he was in, but he came in and took care of the family in a way that was that was big. You know, financially, you know, in a moment, we didn't know he was, at the time a drug dealer, but he just came in and took care of the family. And that was big at that moment because, you know, we leaned on my uncle, my Uncle Kevin, heavy at that time. And, you know, when he died, it was a big loss. You know, I just remember being a kid basically all of Compton kind of just like shut down for the funeral. And, you know, we all was kind of like in a lost place, you know, and he stepped in and, you know, helped out in a big way.
David Axelrod
00:15:16
But he went to prison.
DeMar DeRozan
00:15:18
Yeah.
David Axelrod
00:15:19
And you kept in touch with him during those years and he he was intent on steering you away from all of that.
DeMar DeRozan
00:15:28
For sure. Even when he got out of jail, you know, he had a kids program, after afterschool program where no inner city kids went to and was able to, you know, learn how to work in a studio, learn how to do different activities, whatever it may be. It was kind of an after school program for our inner city kids. And, you know, part of it was the basketball program that he had, too, that we was able to go to and, you know, be a part of and to have a team, workout, have a gym to go to, play, and kind of keep you out of, you know, from that from that 3:00 to 9:00 time span from Monday to Friday, we, you have idle time that, you know, easily get distracted. You know, we had those moments to go, you know, go to the gym and do all these other activities. So that was big. That that, you know, I think I was in middle school when he got out of jail and was able to do that.
David Axelrod
00:16:18
Yeah. Your dad is a big character in this in your story. And he seemed like a tough guy, a caring guy who obviously loved you and was a huge guiding light in your life, but also locked you in the closet when you misbehaved. And it was a lot of tough love.
DeMar DeRozan
00:16:38
Yeah. And I used to. I used to hate it. I used to hate it when I was young one, because I didn't, I didn't, you know, I didn't understand it. But, you know, he was he was definitely tough on me, you know? And I. As I got older, you know, the appreciation of him being tough on me, whether it was with sports, with school or just, you know, with life, all I ever wanted was just to, you know, have fun and, you know, be a kid with my dad. But, you know, he always looked at it from the standpoint of, you know, the world wasn't a nice place in the cities. And if I wanted to be able to make it out. I needed to understand how to maneuver through tough moments in my life, because they was gonna come. You know, and that was one thing he always used to preach to me was how to be, you know, a hard worker, a listener, a competitor. Take whatever I say serious. Have morals, have a drive, you know, and don't be a follower. That was one thing he always used to tell me. Don't be a follower. Don't do what everybody else out there was doing. And he gave me a subconscious to know when I was in certain moments in my life, especially young, that if I didn't understand something, I know if it was right or wrong, if it was wrong, stay away from it, you know? And that that helped me a lot because I never wanted to let my dad down. So he used to play on my conscience a lot because I knew what I would have to deal with if I had to go back and, you know, express my wrongs to my dad. So it made sense why he was so tough on me, you know?
David Axelrod
00:18:20
Yeah.
DeMar DeRozan
00:18:21
The to steer me away from, you know, when I was out there by myself to make the right decision. Because, you know, one thing I do give my dad, you know, he allowed me to to grow. He just instilled, you know, in my conscience to right from wrong and don't follow what the next person will do it If you if it don't seem right, don't do it.
David Axelrod
00:18:41
What are the differences between you and a bunch of the folks you grew up with? Probably was that, the presence of this strong father figure in the in the house. And, you know, two parents who were very focused on keeping you on the straight and narrow.
DeMar DeRozan
00:18:59
1,000%. And even growing up, I remember it being a joke or being made fun of. When you hear the stories about, you know, me getting teased in the sense of like, you got both your parents, like it used to be a bad thing that was kind of like portrayed growing up because most people didn't. Most people don't have that. Most people don't have it. Most people didn't have neither one of their parents, so they felt neglected. So they had to take the pain and emotions out on you for having both your parents. So for me, having both my parents was very instrumental because from my dad's point of view of how tough he was on me, I looked at it from my mom point of view, too, of understanding like, all she cared about was if I walk. Whenever I walk out the house, just make sure I walk back in the house. And that was one thing I always wanted to honor with my mom, because I seen so much pain and hurt she went through, from, you know, losing her brother to gang violence to, you know, losing close friends to, you know, when I was 16, you know, she lost her mom. Six days later, she lose her dad. So, you know, it was always a disciplined approach. I took, whenever I would outside, to understand that I had to make it back in the house, because I didn't want to let my parents dwon.
David Axelrod
00:20:20
We're going to take a short break and we'll be right back with more of The Axe Files. And now back to the show. I was really moved to you know, you said in the book that your dad would point out at the moon and and tell you that no matter what, the moon will shine again tomorrow. And you talked about getting out of Compton whenever you could and going to the beach at night and looking by yourself and just looking up at the moon and thinking about, as you said, your dad said getting out.
DeMar DeRozan
00:21:03
Yeah. To this day, I still I still do it. Like it's still. It will forever be a habit of mine. I got a running joke with my kids when they when they can't sleep at night. I always tell them, like, if you don't go to sleep, I'm gonna take you to the moon. You know, they don't understand why I say it. But to me, you know, it always, you know, revert back to my dad. So to me, that's still very, very, very instrumental to me because no matter on my worst days or my best days, whenever I could go outside and, you know, see the moon, that kind of put everything in perspective for me. You know, especially if things is going bad, you know, looking at the moon always, you know, symbolize that it's more to the world than just whatever I'm complaining about in that moment, you know. And that that was something that was always major for me to keep, you know, in a sense, keep pushing.
David Axelrod
00:21:53
One of the things that you say is that, you know, well, other kids turn to drugs and gangbanging and so on. Basketball was your. Basketball is how you reacted to the environment and how you, in a sense, sheltered yourself from it. Your dad was instrumental in that as well.
DeMar DeRozan
00:22:15
Yeah, he was. You know, my dad used to work so much, so it was always big for me, like he always used to. When I was young, he always would take me to the parks and play, you know, always. And even, you know, looking back on it knowing, I know how tired I be with my kids when I go to the park. So I can only imagine how he felt taking me to the park. But that was always a big thing for him was we used to drive around, park to park, you know, where nobody was outside. And he would just let me go out there and play. We would play. Shoot around. Nonstop. You know, sometimes till sun go down. You know, that was big.
David Axelrod
00:22:54
And he pushed you. He puts you hard. He was an athlete, too, right?
DeMar DeRozan
00:22:57
Yeah. Yeah, He he played football definitely with an athlete. And he used to push me, especially to my breaking point a lot of times. I remember one time he bust my lip and I got so mad, I threw the ball and I just stormed to the car and I was so mad. I remember him sitting in the car telling me like, you know, you see how quick you get mad and you quit. Life going to throw a lot of stuff at you, and it is you gonna quit? He always used to ask me stuff like that, and it drove me to be even more of a competitor because I never wanted to quit after that. Once he, you know, he put it in those terms because, you know, he kind of showed me how to use my aggression on the court, not use it as an excuse to quit.
David Axelrod
00:23:44
Yeah. Well, you talk a lot here about having a lot of anger and rage about what was going on around you and channeling it into basketball, into dunking over people. And so basketball became an outlet for all of that.
DeMar DeRozan
00:24:00
1,000%. If it wasnt' for that, I don't know where I would have been because, you know, like you said, it's like all I knew was aggression growing up. You know, whenever I was around a group of people, they everything you seen, it was always aggressive, aggressiveness, aggressiveness. You hear people arguing outside all the time. Like it never was, you know, calm moment that you, know, that you could just sit in. A lot of my calm moments always came at night when it was time to, you know, lay down. But even with that, so many of the thoughts that come come up that that I had to deal with as a young kid. So all you knew how to deal with aggression was aggression. You know, if you didn't have an outlet towards that, you know, it will lead you down the wrong direction. You know, whether through drink or drugs, or willing to try anything that that's that doesn't fix you. You know, and and basketball was everything for me and gave me a way to escape, let my aggression out on. It made me just feel free. Top to bottom.
David Axelrod
00:25:06
'You did escape to USC. You could play basketball anywhere. You were a high school All-America. You went to USC not far from home, but like a world away.
DeMar DeRozan
00:25:16
And it's so crazy that even now I still go back to SC now and workout. I sit and realize like, you know, Compton is only 20 minutes away. But at the time I felt it felt like I felt like it was in another country. Because I just remember my first day going to SC and I was terrified of just feeling intimidated. I never felt intimidated walking through no neighborhood, nothing in Compton. But I never forget when I walked on on campus, you know, it was it was a very overwhelming feeling because it was so new. You know, you you you around a environment that you wasn't used to, that you never seen, you didn't grow up in, you know, and it felt too comfortable. And too safe. It gave me that eerie feeling like on the movies where they walking in a middle of nowhere and it's too quiet? That's kind of how I felt. And it took me a while to adjust to that.
David Axelrod
00:26:13
You keep referring to movies. You and your dad were big movie buffs.
DeMar DeRozan
00:26:17
Yeah. Listen. Everything. It was to a point to where I probably seen every movie. You know, that was one thing me and my dad always did. We went to the movies every weekend. We used to go to the movies. At the time, I didn't know you could do this, but I remember. We'd go early. But he always make me get the newspaper. Look at the times. He had tried to time it up so we could see multiple movies in the day. So he'd get tickets for one movie and we'd leave out that movie theater and go in another one. And that was always our thing, and I thought it was the coolest thing for me, because I used to look forward to those. I used to look forward to going to the movie, the movie store on a Friday, renting a movie. And you know, we used to, he used to copy that, the movie, and we used to laminate it, put the title on it. We used to take the movie back before Sunday, before Monday. If you take it back on Sunday, you don't get charged the full weekend. And I just I used to always look forward to, you know, doing stuff like that. But he was very big on movies, man. I used to watch movies all day from movies from the 70s, 80s, 90s like that was that was our thing.
David Axelrod
00:27:29
And he, he worked in videography so he'd copy movies you said and you said there was like a stack of videos. You didn't have much furniture in your house, but you had a stack of video.
DeMar DeRozan
00:27:40
Walls of videos like to the, damn near to the ceiling of every movie you could think of. We had every movie. Like he used to copy every movie we used to watch and we used. I'm telling you, it was movies everywhere. Like it was. It was the craziest thing when, like, looking back on it is, it's, it was the wildest thing. Because just imagine just a wall of black tapes with just the white laminated, laminated titles of every movie. It was crazy.
David Axelrod
00:28:12
That must have given you a window into a world you didn't you didn't know.
DeMar DeRozan
00:28:15
Yeah, as far as like the movies.
David Axelrod
00:28:18
Yeah.
DeMar DeRozan
00:28:19
Yeah, yeah. And I think that's a lot where a lot of my imagination come from is being able just to, you know, watch movies and have a different insight on just the environment that I was kind of growing up in. You know, just like basketball, movies was a way for me to escape and, you know, put myself in, you know, certain characters or certain moments or, you know, if it was superhero movie, finding the confidence from watching, you know, you know, Christopher Reeve playing Superman. You know, like you name it, like I was I was always big on that. They just gave gave my my mind that hour, the two hours, three hours to kind of escape my reality.
David Axelrod
00:29:04
I bet you none of them were in French, though. That would have helped you when you went to Toronto.
DeMar DeRozan
00:29:09
Forsure, that for sure would have helped, because when I went, I started to see one half of the freeway signs in French. And it was. It was definitely different.
David Axelrod
00:29:19
Yeah. You were drafted by the Toronto Raptors. Talk about that transition. You mentioned the language, but here you are not just in another city, but another country. Talk about the transition from college to professional sports in a city that was remote to you.
DeMar DeRozan
00:29:39
Yeah, that transition for me was was very necessary. It was needed. It was. I couldn't ask for nothing else just because it completely takes you out your comfort zone. It takes you away from, you know, everything that you knew and placed you in a place where you kind of start completely over and you got to kind of learn for yourself. Because, you know, one thing with if I had a bad day when I was in college, I still would go home. I still was staying in Compton, I still was around my comfort zone. I still was going around, you know, my neighborhood. I still was going around these same places that I'm comfortable with when something went wrong. Now I'm place in a whole nother country where, at at that time, nobody, nobody close to me could go and nobody had a passport. So my whole first year, I was I was I was by myself. And it was everything I needed from the standpoint of me understanding how to become a true professional, work, be disciplined and just really focus in on what matters. And that's all I did my whole first year. You know, understand how to just really fend for yourself, because I always had family members around me whenever I needed something and they kind of put me in that solitude to understand, you know, you got to grow fast if you want to understand everything.
David Axelrod
00:31:10
One thing that struck me was that you also got exposed to basketball as a business. You got close to teammates who then got traded. And that's a loss. A kind of loss. And loss is a big part of this story. Just adjusting to as much loss as you've seen in your life.
DeMar DeRozan
00:31:30
Yeah, and that was a new loss because, you know, you are so used to losing at the time for me, I was so used to, when you lose somebody, you know, you're not going to speak to them, see them again. So, you know, having teammates you get so close with and then in a moment, you think that's supposed to last forever. You not even considering the business of it. You don't even understand nothing of the moment that you living in and, you know, season ends and all of a sudden six players that you was close with not not on the team the following year. And you kind of become confused by it, because now, you know as the years go on, you start to realize like, you know, only can get as close to you as my job allows me to, because it's a good chance we may not be teammates, you know? And that was kind of like a newfound understanding that I kind of had to adjust to when I got in the league because, you know, it's hard just opening up, being with somebody every single day. Now all of a sudden, you know, that change.
David Axelrod
00:32:37
You became a big star in Toronto and you began to raise a family there, your partner, Kiana, she moved up there. And you got very comfortable there. That was home to you in many ways. And then you got traded nine years in, you got traded. Talk about that experience because, you know, you wrote about it. It's kind of stunning when you you're kind of an institution in the city.
DeMar DeRozan
00:33:04
And yeah, you know, but coming, you know, I was 19 when I was drafted, embraced in a whole new not just city, whole new country. Becoming a father. Growing older, going through all of the ups and downs of a winning, progression as a player. Being there nine years, it really shows you that time really, really would fly. You got to learn to appreciate the moments more than anything, because just like that, it could be taken away from you and that that that that kind of what it felt like. You know, I put my all into everything I had there because in my mind, I don't know nothing else about changing teams. I didn't want to change team. That was the only place I wanted to be. So to have that kind of be taken away from, from you and a place that everything your adulthood was built on was there. You know, it kind of you kind of hurt, you know. I always speak about it in that sense because, you know, emotionally, not just professional wise, emotionally, I was so engulfed into it, you know, with my personal life and everything, so everything had to be shifted and got to figure it out. You know, it was tough.
David Axelrod
00:34:25
'You were carrying a lot of baggage and you went to the All-Star Game in 2018. You've been an all star six times, but this was in your hometown in Los Angeles. And you talk about the burdens of that and everybody you ever knew getting in touch with you, wanting to see you and all of that. And I'm sure a lot of complicated feelings. And around that time you were down. You got a hold of a video in the late at night when you couldn't sleep and it was Jim Carrey, the comedian. And it turns out that like a lot of comics, he he had a kind of very, very challenging life. And this but his words in this video had like a profound impact on you.
DeMar DeRozan
00:35:15
Yeah, it's so crazy because I, I felt like all my life I kind of been in search for emotional and mental understanding outside of my own. So I saw always pay attention. Like I said, this goes back to the stories of me just always talking to the guy in a neighborhood that was always sat out front of the liquor store outside on the corner. I was like, I had empathy for the struggle and wanted to understand the struggle, because in a sense, I feel you. And as I got older, you know, guys like Jim Carrey and guys like Robin Williams, you know, we think, you know, they make us laugh and make us feel good. But it's such a more in depth thing that's going on personally. And Jim Carrey put a emotion in words that kind of hit. You know, one of them was, you know, he expressed about, you know, he wished everybody was rich, so they realized money is everything. Money doesn't solve everything. And that hit so hard for me because I'd been feeling that way forever when, you know, I remember being one of those people to like, you know, I can't wait till I get to the NBA, I get some money, everything will be fine. And and it don't work that way. You see a guy like a Robin Williams that had it all, was one of the greatest actors and comedians. And, you know, he committed suicide for a lot of stuff he was carrying. And if you don't adress it and you don't get to it, it's a really painful thing. You know, money don't solve that at all. So when Jim when I heard Jim Carrey say that, it kind of hit home.
David Axelrod
00:37:02
You know, the thing about Robin Williams, I mean, does that scare you? Does it scare you about what the consequences of holding things back can be?
DeMar DeRozan
00:37:11
Yeah, for sure. 1,000%, because some of your strongest people, you know, referred to some of, you know, are carrying the darkest of demons. That becomes a battle that that becomes hard to fight by yourself and you just try to fight it by yourself. It's tough.
David Axelrod
00:37:30
You send out a tweet that was sort of rocked the sports world and maybe beyond the sports world. And it was just a few words. You said this depression got the best of me. Tell me about that, about why you sent that tweet. And did you have any sense that it was going to be as volcanic as it was out there?
DeMar DeRozan
00:37:53
Yeah. You know, just like movies are, you know, I've become relatable with a lot of movies. I'm a big music person, as well. And, you know, I remember during that night I was just kind of listening to music, kind of searching for the the right emotions of what exactly it was that I was going through. And, you know, when I heard those those lyrics that, you know, they hit home for me exactly how I felt. And, you know, I was I was so isolated that night. I didn't want to talk to nobody. I didn't want to be around nobody. I was just kind of to myself in those words, kind of like set with me very heavy. And, you know, I took it, took it to Twitter and tweeted it. And, you know, I put my phone down and, you know, in my mind, I'm gonna just wake up and feel better tomorrow and go about my day. You know, I wake up, you know, to countless missed calls, texts trying to get clarity on what exactly that meant and such a worry that was kinda, you know, being put out there about me. And that's exactly how I felt. But, you know, it was a new day and I was more so like, yeah, that's how I felt last night. That's how I feel most of the nights. But, you know, nobody never see it. No, I didn't know it was going to take the turn that it took, you know, because in that moment when I tweeted, it just was a selfish emotion that I put out there.
David Axelrod
00:39:21
I discovered this myself. I wrote a. 30 years, I didn't talk about how my dad died. And I wrote a piece on Father's Day in 2006. And I've never gotten more reaction to anything that I've ever done or said than that particular piece. And it came from people who were struggling themselves or people that lost someone to those struggles and who just were reassured that they weren't alone and that other people were going through it. And I'm wondering, you must have gotten a lot of that, and you've obviously continued on and you've made yourself a force for mental health and for confronting your problems and getting the therapy you need and so on.
DeMar DeRozan
00:40:08
Yeah, I think that was the turning point for me when you realize in that moment of how many people felt encouraged, enlightened a relief, not feeling alone. In That moment when I realized that, that's when it really kind of hit me and it showed the power of being able to express vulnerability and and talk about it, what it could do not just for yourself, but so many other people, because we all go through so much that we hold in feelin alone, feeling like there's nobody else that probably understand it or aren't going through it. So when I seen that, you know it made me realize, it was bigger than just me. You know and how I could be a part of this thing and be as helpful as possible, you know not just for myself but you know, for people in general.
David Axelrod
00:41:01
You've taken advantage of therapy. Talk about that and what that's meant for you.
DeMar DeRozan
00:41:07
It definitely was a was a challenge at first because, you know, I pushed back at it for a long time. You know, countless times, I'll be completely honest. And I always tell people, you know, sometimes it don't work the first couple of times. You can't go into it thinking it's just going to solve everything. And I think for me, that's what I, I thought going into it. Thinking, all right, 1 or 2 times, I'd be completely fine. You know, it's it's, it's more of a a journey and a process of understanding and learning a new, new found, you know, thing about yourself, you know, so it's a new, you know, it's an endless university that you kind of, you know, joining, in a sense. That was the thing for me because I started to search and use it in different ways that helped find myself in a in a competitive mindset, how to, you know, channel a lot of energy towards things that's important. Understanding, you know, when I feel this way, what to do, how to deal with it. You know, so it's definitely a challenge in its own right. You know, it it was one thing. It's a it took me a while to come to embrace it. I mean, I'm still going through it and still a struggle now because there's still new emotions that, you know, that you're gonna be met with that you got to figure out.
David Axelrod
00:42:23
Yeah, Just for the record, I've benefited from it myself. And I understand exactly what you're saying because you have all these defenses built up. And one of the things that it does for you is someone who is more objective, can point things out that you will see yourself. And it's it's it's it's really helpful. I hope this book is read widely because I worry every day about these kids in Chicago. I worry every day about them. It's not normal. It's not normal to witness death. It's not normal to be fearful about whether you're going to get killed that day. It's not normal to see your mother looking out the window, worried that you're not going to come back. That's just not normal in in a kid's developing brain, you know, and some of these kids don't have access to help. They need access to help. You have to be open to getting help. And we got to make sure people can get it.
DeMar DeRozan
00:43:20
For sure. I think that's a big thing, just making it an arm's reach. Just as much as people may think all the negative things are so close and in reach, we got to make the positive, helpful things just just as accessible as anything.
David Axelrod
00:43:35
We're going to take a short break and we'll be right back with more of The Axe Files. And now back to the show. I mentioned before you got traded. You get traded to the San Antonio Spurs. And I want to ask you specifically about the coach there, Gregg Popovich, who's a legend for his success in the NBA. But people who know him think of him not just as a great coach, but as an unbelievable human being. You talk about the death of your dad. You were playing for San Antonio during the pandemic. Your dad had suffered a series of strokes. He was in terrible shape and he was in the hospital. And your family, your mom, no one could see him.
DeMar DeRozan
00:44:30
Yeah, No, nobody could see him. And I think that was the the most hurtful part of it because, you know, when he went in, I think he was probably in the hospital for about almost two months before he passed. Yes, it was over two months. And now I just remember, you know, I just remember certain moments, to where, you know, we have to talk to him like this. And at the time he was in such bad shape, you know, he really couldn't talk back. But I remember the day, you know, my mom just told a doctor, sit the laptop up in front of him. And I see my mom sit there for, you know, eight, nine hours just having a conversation with him, knowing he couldn't talk back to the point where, you know, obviously the laptop must have died or something. Itused to be that for days where, you know, we had a we had a meeting time where, you know, the the nurses set up the computer and we could just kind of just literally just like how we are now and on laptop and talk to him. And you know that was, that was a very rough time because, you know, you just want to be able to find some type of, you know, closure and clarity, at least being by someone you care for so much's side, and not to be able to have that, you know, that was that was tough.
David Axelrod
00:45:50
You learned that he had passed while you while you were on the road. And you told someone on the team what had happened. And you were in your hotel room and there was a knock on your door and who was there.
DeMar DeRozan
00:46:06
It was Pop. It was literally. I was trying to figure out, honestly, in that moment when I got the call that he passed, I called the GM, Brian Wright, from San Antonio Spurs. I really didn't want to make it a thing or, you know, be a distraction to the team in any type of way. So I called the GM and told him, you know, that, you know, I got to figure out how to get home. I'm gonna try to get a plane and leave soon as possible tonight. He said, man, whatever you need help with, like, do what you got to do. And literally, I hung up the phone with him, and probably two minutes later, I heard a knock at my door and it was Pop. You know, he just came in, gave me a big hug, cried with me, sat on a couch, and, you know, he just gave me words that I don't think nobody else could of gave me. You know, for him to show the empathy, the compassion, the love, the the how he embraced me in that moment. You know, I felt like, I felt like I've known him my whole entire life. You know, I'm it it meant the world to me more than anything, because, you know, for him to do that, you know, I'll never forget. He walked in my room and he had no shoes on. Nothing. And you could tell he just got out the bed. And, you know, that was that's a special moment that always, like, hold dear to my heart. And the crazy thing about Pop is Pop, he he would get mad at me telling the story, because he never wants any type of attention from those type of things. And that just shows you the type of person you know he is. But to me, that's something I'll always, I always have to talk about it mentioned because that was that that embodies who Gregg Popovich is.
David Axelrod
00:47:53
I always remember when they won one of their championships, San Antonio, I remember there, a lot of the players going in the front of the room answering questions. And he was just standing in the back of the room and he wouldn't join them, because he thought it was their moment. So I want to ask you about this, because there's a lesson about leadership there as well. And Pop, by the way, for those who aren't basketball fans, is Coach Popovich, he's been very, very successful. He obviously understands the game at a very high level. But it seems to me that part of being a successful leader is caring, is making everyone feel like they are, they count, they're important. They're part of they're part of a family. And he's got that quality. And it's maybe the thing that makes him one of the greatest of all time.
DeMar DeRozan
00:48:41
Without a doubt, the compassion, the, he puts so much in perspective, bigger than basketball, which allows you to give your all to him so, so easy. So it's incredible the the the capability he have with that. Most of it, it's not even basketball. As great as he is with basketball, it's so much greater with everything else he do because that's the ability he have to get the most out of you, because he he give compassion, empathy, accountability, understanding, you know, in the knowledge that he brings with it as a human being makes everything else easy. It unlocks some that's bigger than just basketball, honestly.
David Axelrod
00:49:29
I think Phil Jackson, who was, had great success both with the Lakers in the Bulls, used to say this Native American aphorism, which was like the strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack. In other words, we all need each other on a team. And, you know, you write about that. You write about when everything was going well in Toronto, you were playing for each other. You weren't playing for the money. You were, you were playing for each other. Talk about that element of team sports.
DeMar DeRozan
00:50:03
'Yeah, that's the beauty of team sports and that's the beauty of, you know, when you look at any type of sports, the guys who come together the closest is the ones that go the far, the furthest because, you know, you don't feel alone. You know, the team, especially the teams in Toronto, we had such a bond with every single person on a team that was bigger basketball. Like we cared. We honestly cared about everybody's well-being in a sense of making sure when we came to work, like putting a smile or making the next person feel good, comfortable, you know, compassion. We wanted the best for one another. We pushed each other. We figured out each other flaws to try to, you know, create strengths for each other. It's so many small detail things that went into those teams that made us special, that, you know, I never forget, you know, even to this day, the relationship I have a lot of those young guys, you know, was special. You know, there were those times I went to a couple of guys like Norman Power or Freddie or Pascal, these guys playing in G League. I used to drive down to to their games and support them. And you know, used to mean so much that it that that it brought the best out of them, you know, and that's what team is all about. Honestly.
David Axelrod
00:51:23
There's been this big explosion of interest in women's basketball. You've got four daughters. What's your sense of that? And, you know, we've seen the Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese and all these stars emerging here, rivalries and so on.
DeMar DeRozan
00:51:40
I love it. You know, I've always been a big fan of women's basketball. And even now, you know, especially with my oldest daughter, she she she loves she loves basketball. You know, when I first had her, I had her around basketball every single day. Every single moment. So to see, you know, the women's taking the step like they stepping in, it's fun. It's exciting to watch. You know, I wish more people give the women the credit that they deserve, because the talent that they bring in, you know, and it's always been there. You know, I'm glad it's finally coming along, but it's always been there, and they deserve everything that's coming their way. I should say, you know, to watch to be a part of you know, I'm I'm even trying to collect, you know, the women trading cards for my daughter. So that's the cool thing that makes it fun, you know, because, you know, she don't care about me. She she want an Angel Reese signed card. She want a, you know, just a couple of weeks ago, you know, I worked out with Juju Watkins. And you know, I made sure I got a signed jersey for both my daughters. You know, I mean, that's the cool thing for me that make me a cool dad. So no, I definitely love it.
David Axelrod
00:52:59
And then there's something else about the women's game, because they're not they're not going to overpower each other the way as sometimes happens in the men's game. They're not going to come flying in and slam.
DeMar DeRozan
00:53:11
It's such a skillful way that they have to do everything, you know? And that's how I watch the game. It's really an intelligent, IQ and skillfulness that they bring to the game, that that makes it exciting for me the things that they're able to do. You know, they they're not going, you're not going to see know 360 dunks and everything but you see how smart and competitive these women are. And this is it's a fun thing to watch.
David Axelrod
00:53:38
There's been this and LeBron's been in the middle of this, this hubbub about Caitlin Clark and kind of a reaction to her. Some people love her. Some people hate her. She's getting a lot of notoriety. What's your assessment of her and her place in the game?
DeMar DeRozan
00:53:56
I love it. People like Caitlin Clark are the ones that could, you know, bring what they all deserve to the league. You know, and that's one thing I don't understand when the hate get involved, it's like, you know, if there's one person who could take us over the top, let's embrace it. Let's be competitors. But also let's let's, let's embrace it. Because what was happening here is a special moment that, you know, we don't get a chance to really witness. So I just can never understand the hate, you know, and that that goes with whoever's playing. It's like if this one person can take us over the top and bring us this much more attention, let's let's, let's build behind this as best as we can. Still compete. But, you know, the hate, the hate behind it? I just don't understand it.
David Axelrod
00:54:45
You know, I want to ask you and I should have asked you earlier when we were talking about the mental health issue or challenge. One of the reasons your tweet and all of your work, your podcast discussions and this book and so on are so meaningful is and you write a little bit about this that there is an impression that successful athletes are like superhuman and especially men, strong, indestructible and so on, that that seems dangerous. And that's probably a little above what those young men on the streets think too.
DeMar DeRozan
00:55:21
Yeah, for sure.
David Axelrod
00:55:22
Too much testosterone.
DeMar DeRozan
00:55:25
That's exactly what it is. And I think. That's why I really try to just bridge the understanding and the gap and have these conversations to be able to build the the, the dialogue so people can see and have an understanding when it come comes to all this, you know, because, one, at the end of day we are all humans and just because this person may be in this position or whatever it may be, it's a lot that comes with it. You know, at the end of the day, we still we still we still humans, we still got emotions. We still got feelings. And in a moment, we may seem indestructible, but a lot of times, you know, people will be surprised what a lot of their favorite athletes or or people they look up to really go through a lot of things that they try to hide behind because they may not be strong enough or be shameful enough to they, you know, they have the courage to really speak out on what what exactly is that they gone throug,h because now we live in such a, you know, a nitpicking world to where you show a flaw, people want to, you know, kind of tear you down in that sense. And, you know, it makes this scarier for people to, you know, be able to come out and really express what it is that they going through.
David Axelrod
00:56:40
Yeah, Well, hats off to Michael Phelps, to Simone Biles, you know, the greatest Olympians who have been very open about their struggles, which is part of the human condition, as you point out. And hats off to you, DeMar, for everything that you've done. You know, I have loved watching you play ball as a basketball fan. It's a pleasure to watch you play, but the thing that distinguishes you is much more than your game. It's the character and courage you share to tell your story. So I really appreciate you.
DeMar DeRozan
00:57:14
Thank you, brother. I appreciate you.
David Axelrod
00:57:16
Yeah, well, we're going to get closer because people like you were willing to speak out. So again, I appreciate you and I look forward to seeing you when you come to town.
DeMar DeRozan
00:57:27
Fo sure. Appreciate you.
David Axelrod
00:57:28
All right. Thank you.
DeMar DeRozan
00:57:29
No problem.
Outro
00:57:33
Thank you for listening to The Axe Files, brought to you by the Institute of Politics at the University of Chicago and CNN Audio. The executive producer of the show is Miriam Finder Annenberg. The show is also produced by Saralena Barry, Jeff Fox and Hannah Grace McDonald. And special thanks to our partners at CNN, including Steve Lickteig and Haley Thomas. For more programing from IOP, visit politics dot uchicago dot edu.