Catching up on Classics (and lots more!) discussion

Electra is our Old School Classic Group Read for March 2023.

This is the No Spoiler Thread
The Spoiler Thread will open on the 1st.

This early posting of the No Spoiler thread is to discuss any non-plot issues pertaining to the book.

Appropriate Posts can contain:
1. Information about the author.
2. Compare editions/translations.
3. Any historical or background information
4. Are you familiar with this author’s work? Do you have any expectations going into the book?
5. What made you decide to read this book?
6. Any fan fiction that you have read or would like to read? Just link the books.
7. If you loved the book and want others to share in that experience, use this thread to motivate others, again save plot specifics for the Spoiler thread
8. If you hated the book, it would be best to keep that for the spoiler page.

There are two well-known ancient Greek plays with this title. We are reading the one by Sophocles. The other one, written about the same time, is by Euripedes. The two versions, although they are about the same woman in history, the daughter of Agamemnon and Clytemnestra, apparently are very different from one another.

I wondered why we are reading Sophocles' drama rather than Euripedes'. I did a search throughout all of our Catching Up On Classics posts and find that Euripedes has never been mentioned here once until about two weeks ago, and then only briefly and tangentially. That's rather astonishing for a group with the name "Classics" in its heading.

Is the Sophocles drama we have chosen to read much more popular or widely known, I wondered. As far as popular, that's a negative. Euripedes' play when it stands alone for consideration has a GoodReads rating of 3.96, which compares slightly favorably to Sophocles' version, 3.81. The Sophocles version is indeed a little more widely read: 11,868 ratings compared to Euripedes' 6,635.

I think I will read both plays in March. I look forward to joining everyone here March 1 for the Sophocles first.

Dan wrote: "There are two well-known ancient Greek plays with this title. We are reading the one by Sophocles. The other one, written about the same time, is by Euripedes…I wondered why we are reading Sophocles' drama rather than Euripedes."

I think it was a natural progression after reading the Oedipal Cycle/Theban plays last year. After reading Oedipus Rex as a group, many decided to continue on and read Oedipus at Colonus and Antigone. Some collections that include the Oedipus plays also contain Electra.

I want to re-read it, as it´s been a long time. I got one in German translation.

Great choice! I haven’t read Sophocles but it’s on my list. Will start it as a part of the group read. I have the Signet classics : Sophocles The complete plays, translated by Paul Roche.
Will anyone else be using that translation?

I am going to be reading a translation by Anne Carson included in The Complete Sophocles, Volume II: Electra and Other Plays

Kushagri wrote: "Great choice! I haven’t read Sophocles but it’s on my list. Will start it as a part of the group read. I have the Signet classics : Sophocles The complete plays, translated by Paul Roche.
Will anyo..."

I have the Roche/Signet edition.

I´ll be reading the German translation by Wolfgang Schadewald, a Reclam paperback I got at home.

The Dover Thrift Edition Electra contains a 1906 translation based on an 1888 translation by Sir George Young. It's inexpensive to obtain, written in free verse, and is understandable if I read each speech several times. But it does not exactly flow. And sometimes it's just not really that understandable. For example, here are the last four lines, spoken by the Guardian just before Electra's first dialogue:

Do nothing ere performing what is bidden
Of Loxias*, and initiate all from thence,
Pouring lustrations on your father's grave
This wafts us victory, and nerves our doings.

* Epithet of Apollo, meaning either the Ambiguous, or the Speaker.

Surely we can do better. My search for the right translation continues....

It is pure coincidence because I didn't much research which translation before getting my copy, but I really like the concept described in the book's introduction of The Complete Sophocles, Volume II: Electra and Other Plays:

"Based on the conviction that only translators who write poetry themselves can properly re-create the celebrated and timeless tragedies of Aeschylus, Sophocles and Euripides . . . . The translations in this series are the result of collaborations between outstanding poets and prominent scholars."

That sounds like a fantastic idea, to me anyway, because a proper translation of poetry takes both poetry and scholarship.

And those last lines, spoken by the Guardian just before Electra's first diaglogue read in my translation:

"No. Nothing precedes the work of Apollo.
That is our first step: your father's libations.
That is the way to win: action."

It's extremely clear at least. So far, I liked the Fitts/Fitzgerald's translation of The Oedipus Cycle a little bit more, but I've hardly begun. And that is a different source material of course, though the same author (Sophocles).

I will not read all the plays in the volume this month, but volume II contains poets I quite like as co-contributors on some of the four Sophocles plays included:
* Women of Trachis translated by poet C.K. Williams and scholar Gregory W. Dickerson
* Electra translated by poet Anne Carson and scholar Michael Shaw
* Philoctetes translated by by poet Carl Phillips and scholar Diskin Clay
* Ajax translated by Herbert Golder and Ricahrd Pevear

I am not familiar with Herbert Golder, but I've read poetry by the other three.

Thanks Greg. I agree. Your translation certainly renders the text into more clearly understandable English.

I continued my search after my last post, found a wide variety of translations available, some free, some proprietary. I wanted something that would translate the Greek text into clear English, no flowery poetry, no nineteenth century terms I'm unfamiliar with, just a solid, faithful translation so I can determine what's being said. After my look around I have concluded that the Hugh Lloyd-Jones’ 1994 translation for the Loeb Classical Library edition of Sophocles I: Ajax, Electra, Oedipus Tyrannus, revised by Lloyd-Jones in 1997 serves my purposes best. Its ISBN is 9780674995574.

It has the original Greek on the facing page. I know a smattering of modern Greek, enough that I'll want to look at the original sometimes. So that's a nice plus for me. The original text Lloyd-Jones used, he edited in 1990 with N.G. Wilson for the Oxford Classical Texts, is lightly corrected. For me, that text is about as authoritative for translation as it gets. I've read critics say that Lloyd-Jones' text language is highly readable. The book is on order and should reach me within the week.

I do love facing language translations Dan, especially when translating from languages I know a little of like Spanish.

Glad you found one that works for you

My translation is from Hackett Publishing by Peter Meineck and Paul Woodruff. The book has four tragedies, besides Electra it includes Ajax, Women of Trachis, & Philoctetes; of which I read none of them.
Did I miss a reading schedule, or is this go at your own pace to complete by the end of the month?

Chris wrote: "My translation is from Hackett Publishing by Peter Meineck and Paul Woodruff. The book has four tragedies, besides Electra it includes Ajax, Women of Trachis, & Philoctetes; of which I read none of..."

I think it's a go at your own pace Chris.

Greg wrote: "I am going to be reading a translation by Anne Carson included in The Complete Sophocles, Volume II: Electra and Other Plays"

If you're reading Anne Carson's translation, you're in for a treat. She really puts Aeschylus, Sophocles, and Euripides into perspective.

Okay, the Hugh-Lloyd Jones translation I mentioned renders the same passage thus:

Old Slave:
But no! Let us attempt nothing before obeying Loxias and begin from that, pouring libations to your father; I say that that brings victory and success in what has to be done!

My problems with that translation:
1) Loxias is named rather than Apollo.
2) Three mentions of "that", two of them directly together. How inelegant!
3) The clarity doesn't really flow for me.

Good news though. I think I found what will prove the optimal translation for me after all. I now prefer E. F. Watling's 1954 Penguin Books translation: Electra and Other Plays and Electra and Other Plays. There, the passage in question is rendered thus:

Tutor:
No, no! Apollo's orders first. Best start the right way, with the libation to your father; that'll put us in success in all we do.

This is clearest to me. Perhaps I wanted the most colloquial, everyday speech translation. I'll use the Greek of the Loeb edition and Watling for the English. There are a lot of copies of the Watling translation Penguin Books version out there for little expense. Even the Internet Archive has it.

Ila wrote: "Greg wrote: "If you're reading Anne Carson's translation, you're in for a treat. She really puts Aeschylus, Sophocles, and Euripides into perspective.."

I finished recently, and I agree - her translation was great!

I read the version in The Greek Plays: Sixteen Plays by Aeschylus, Sophocles, and Euripides translated by Mary R. Lefkowitz which I enjoyed. The paragraph above is translated as:

Old Slave: No, we should not! We should only seek to do what Apollo has ordained. Begin there, pour out libations to you father. I believe this will bring victory, and power to our deeds.

The introduction to the play mentions that there were two versions of the story in ancient Greece. In one, mentioned in the Odyssey, the story ends directly after the killing with Orestes ordering a feast of reconciliation for the Argives and assuming the throne. The second is the version where he must travel to Athens. The translator mentions that Sophocles may very well have felt that since this play was performed in the Theatre of Dionysus very close to the Areopagus where Orestes was supposedly tried, the audience would be familiar with the second version and could complete it in their own minds.

Carolien wrote: "I read the version in The Greek Plays: Sixteen Plays by Aeschylus, Sophocles, and Euripides translated by Mary R. Lefkowitz which I enjoyed. The paragraph above is..."

What does he need to do in Athens, Carolien?

I will have to dig back out my copy. I thought it ended fairly abruptly after the death - did it mention him leaving for Athens?

Greg wrote: "did it mention him leaving for Athens?"

No. Maybe Carolien is referencing a lost version. Sophocles wrote over 120 plays, after all, of which we only have seven.

Thanks for posting Lefkowitz's translation of that passage. I like it best of all so far.

As for what Orestes needs to do in Athens, I would guess it's return home. That's where he resided. Maybe he was tried there for murder. If so, perhaps he was acquitted. Orestes is said to have died of snakebite in Arcadia according to an unsourced Wikipedia sentence.

Let me clarify. The Greeks had a few versions of the story of Orestes. Sophocles settled for the one where Orestes murders Clytemnestra and Aegithus and the story ends there. This is the version we read.

Aeschylus went for the second version of the legend split into 3 parts The Oresteia: Agamemnon, The Libation Bearers, The Eumenides. The killing of Clytemnestra and Aegithus is described in The Libation Bearers. Orestes then has to return via Delphi to Athens where he must stand trial by the Erinyes (Furies) who had the sole power to judge on domestic killings. This trial is covered in The Eumenides. So same characters, but different ending to the story.

Euripides also uses this second version of the story in his play, The Electra of Euripides, although his play ends with Orestes leaving for Athens and does not follow him all the way to the trial.

Hope this makes more sense.

Carolien wrote: "Let me clarify. The Greeks had a few versions of the story of Orestes. Sophocles settled for the one where Orestes murders Clytemnestra and Aegithus and the story ends there. This is the version we..."

Thanks Carolien! That helps a lot!

I have not read those plays by Aeschylus so I was a little confused. :)

I do like that we often get different vantage points on the same events in Greek and Roman works. Another example of that is The Iliad and The Aeneid . . . the coverage of the Trojan War could not be more different - so interesting to lay the different stories up against each other and see how the myths and stories vary and why.

I am just quoting the translators of my copy and assuming they know what they are talking about :)

Fascinating to see how these events changed in retellings - some obviously regional and others just oral traditions which over time settled on one version rather than another.