Talk:Ron DeSantis: Difference between revisions

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Section sizes Section size for Ron DeSantis (32 sections) Section name Byte count Section total (Top) 8,399 8,399 Early life and education 17,848 17,848 Military service 10,661 11,077 Post-naval career 416 416 U.S. House of Representatives (2013–2018) 258 34,082 Elections 5,321 5,321 Tenure 14,063 27,121 Fiscal policy 13,058 13,058 Committees 1,382 1,382 Gubernatorial campaigns 28 28,535 2018 candidacy 18,017 18,017 2022 candidacy 10,490 10,490 Governor of Florida (2019–present) 8,422 92,271 Economic 10,610 10,610 Education 7,478 7,478 Election law and voting rights 7,406 7,406 Abortion limits 8,191 8,191 Tech platforms 5,778 5,778 COVID-19 response 6,535 6,535 LGBT rights 6,783 11,848 Dispute with Disney 5,065 5,065 Policing and law enforcement 6,709 6,709 Immigration and refugees 8,897 8,897 Hurricane Ian response 5,137 5,137 Environment 5,260 5,260 2024 presidential campaign 10,897 10,897 Personal life 7,611 7,611 Electoral history 68 68 Publications 849 849 Notes 24 24 References 30 30 External links 3,500 3,500 Total 215,191 215,191

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The section about DeSantis's military career should include additional public details about DeSantis's role as a lawyer at the Guantánamo Bay detention camp.

Please add the following to that section:

Former Guantanamo detainee Mansoor Adayfi has accused DeSantis of being one of the architects of breaking the hunger strikes at Guantanamo Bay in 2005.^[1] The Real News states, "According to Mansoor, there was no lawyer prior to DeSantis. DeSantis was brought in specifically to break a hunger strike. He was not replacing some other lawyer whose job it was to ensure the human rights of detainees."^[2] Adayfi describes DeSantis's role as follows:

Mansoor Adayfi: We were beaten all day long, all day. There’s a team, whatever you do, they just beat you. Pepper spray, beating, sleep deprivation, that continued for three months. And he was there. Because at the beginning he told us that he was there to ensure we are treated humanely, and if we have concerns or issues, he will take it. But he’s one of the people who actually supervised the torture, the abuse, and the beating all the time at Guantanamo.

Mike Prysner: So Ron DeSantis, he wasn’t just there as a lawyer that you could go to. He was actually supervising torture, beatings, and he was supervising these force feedings of you and others.

Mansoor Adayfi: Ron DeSantis was there all the time because his job was to walk around and talk to prisoners in the camp. That was the job because the report is like, I am here to ensure you’re being treated humanely. I’m like, I’m telling you Americans, if this is humanity, this guy is a torturer, is a criminal.

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Curbon7 (talk) 03:52, 2 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What is the basis for considering the two sources listed as unreliable?Slipandslide (talk) 03:17, 21 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For a starter, one is a SoundCloud podcast. While there hasn't been a discussion on reliability of The Real News Network at WP:RSN, I am very bearish on its reliability based on the about page. Curbon7 (talk) 03:50, 21 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note that this subject was discussed before at this talk page, here. Anythingyouwant (talk) 05:38, 21 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Harpers has also republished the interview Freedom4U (talk) 21:28, 3 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This is discussed below. Nemov (talk) 21:33, 3 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I rolled back this edit[1] and MTWildhack added back the following:

Unlike most politicians, DeSantis has few close friends or confidants.

It's not clear how this single source addition is relevant for a personal life section. Also the comparison to "most politicians" is original research since the original quote says "Besides his wife, his most trusted adviser, he has few friends, let alone confidantes." Please find support for additions. Thanks! - Nemov (talk) 02:36, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The Unlike most politicians is OR, but the fact he has few friends does seem like it can be mentioned in the personal life section. Iamreallygoodatcheckers^t@lk 21:12, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Similar things have been reported about Barack Obama[[2]] in the past and it would seem undue to mention in his biography. I don't see any difference here. Not every WP:RS source needs to be jammed into an article. If there was a ton of coverage about it I'd understand, but that's not the case here. Nemov (talk) 21:37, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Obama doesn't have a personal life section. I don't know what is more relevant to one's personal life than their relationships. Iamreallygoodatcheckers^t@lk 21:41, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Incorrect, and like I said it's not mentioned. This coverage seems trivial to me, but I've been wrong before. Nemov (talk) 22:01, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I'll regress on the assertion that there is no Obama personal life section. Also, just because it's not mentioned at Obama doesn't mean that it shouldn't be mentioned here. WP:OTHERSTUFF. Iamreallygoodatcheckers^t@lk 04:08, 9 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The Ronald Reagan BLP says he “had close friendships with many political leaders across the globe….” But there have always been “experts” saying he had few friends because of emotional problems: “As the child of an alcoholic, Reagan had difficulty maintaining close relationships, and was known for having few if any close friends.” That’s from Feuerherd, Peter. “How Ronald Reagan Was Affected by his Father’s Alcoholism”, JSTOR Daily (January 4, 2018). So I am generally skeptical about psychological appraisals of politicians by so-called experts who have never met them. In the case of DeSantis, former Congressman David Jolly says DeSantis is a serious person but “not a loner”.[3] Anythingyouwant (talk) 23:18, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's stretch to claim "he has few friends." This is WP:BLP and we should proceed with caution about including things of this nature when they're trivial. Again, this article needs less trivial information and certainly not more fluff, but if editors insist on leaving this in then Jolly's quote should be included to balance it. I'm not sure how any of this will be relevant twenty years from now. There's needs to be significantly more coverage to justify inclusion. Nemov (talk) 05:00, 9 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am not saying that the sourcing given is sufficient or that the word is good enough but something about the general idea might be appropriate. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:55, 9 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

According to CNN:

"He kept to himself a bit in the House," said Ryan Costello, the former Pennsylvania congressman who served alongside DeSantis. "He had friends, he had allies, but he was not the gregarious back-slapper that some politicians are always characterized as being."

We should probably be careful to distinguish personal friends in his personal life on the one hand, from friends at work in his professional life on the other hand. Probably the latter should not be covered in the section on personal life. Anythingyouwant (talk) 00:39, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm ready to pull this out of the personal life section. It seems like of a pointless to have "Some have said DeSantis has few close friends or confidants while others have said he has friends and allies, but was not a gregarious back-slapper like other politicians." Given the sources this seems like a matter of opinion than of fact. If no one has a strong objection I'm going to remove. Thanks - Nemov (talk) 18:58, 27 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The opening sentence currently reads "... an American politician, attorney, and former military officer serving as the 46th governor of Florida since 2019."

I'm pretty sure Florida has had only one governor since 2019. The sentence should be "... an American politician, attorney, and former military officer serving since 2019 as the 46th governor of Florida." RichardSRussell (talk) 00:34, 20 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Done! Thank you for the proposed fix. --Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 05:31, 26 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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Add Ron DeSantis being an author to his bio. 216.195.237.27 (talk) 23:42, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Where? If you mean in the lead or infobox, probably no, there really isn't any notable coverage of him or his two? books. Cannolis (talk) 00:21, 24 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Why is his foreign policy section called “foreign politic”? And why is it filled with grammatically incorrect nonsense like this: “In 2014 and 2015 he was agreed to send the weapon to Ukraine against Russia And reproached Obama for having no effective strategy in the face of Putin's aggression on Eastern European countries”? Can someone who is actually able to edit this article at least ensure that it is written in proper English? Also, it might be a good idea to include ANYTHING other than his views on Ukraine when discussing his perspective on foreign policy. The world is a big place, and DeSantis has direct experience at Guantanamo and in Iraq. Those experiences doubtless inform his foreign policy. This can’t be considered informative on DeSantis’s foreign policy positions until it has adopted proper, comprehensible grammar and included more comprehensive information on his positions. 2601:410:81:C180:5C0B:7AF:99BC:C502 (talk) 15:24, 27 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This section was added recently. I've removed it completely since it's malformed and it would be better to include at Political positions of Ron DeSantis. Thanks! - Nemov (talk) 15:49, 27 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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Please add the following citation to the first sentence of the last paragraph in the Early life and education section, as it relates to Darlington School:

<ref>{{cite web |last1=Robles |first1=Frances |title=Pranks, Parties and Politics: Ron DeSantis’s Year as a Schoolteacher |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/05/us/desantis-high-school-teacher-georgia.html |website=The New York Times |access-date=1 March 2023 |archive-url=http://archive.today/2023.02.22-180912/https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/05/us/desantis-high-school-teacher-georgia.html |archive-date=February 22, 2023 |date=November 5, 2022 |url-status=live}}</ref>

Thank you! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 18:41, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Done M.Bitton (talk) 19:33, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I see Mansoor Adayfi is now in this BLP, regarding Guantanamo. I inserted the date of his interview (Nov 2022). FYI, according to Joseph Hickman, a former U.S Army team leader and Sergeant of the Guard at Guantanamo, “As far as him being involved, I don’t think he was. He was way too young and green in the JAG Corps to be involved in anything.” See Christensen, Dan. ”Ron DeSantis accused of illegal acts of torture against Guantanamo detainees when he was a Navy JAG officer”, FloridaBulldog (26 Jan 2023). Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:44, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This addition should be removed on the same grounds as the Torture_at_Guantanamo_Bay request above. There's no original reporting in the Harper's Magazine citation, it's from the same "Eyes Left" podcast. Eyes Left is a socialist, anti-war military podcast. It's not a WP:RS. Nemov (talk) 20:01, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. We should wait for an RS. Anythingyouwant (talk) 20:02, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Torture is not a left-right issue. And Anythingyouwant's "source" is clearly worse, so I don't see that as the overriding concern here. The issues would be NPOV WEIGHT and including any statements from DeSantis on the matter. SPECIFICO talk 20:05, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Harpers is generally reliable, but they merely copied the interview from an unreliable podcast. Anythingyouwant (talk) 20:11, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've always said to just simply wait until a mainstream outlet publishes an investigation. The Miami Herald has one of the best investigative journalism bureaus in the entire country, I'm sure they're already looking into this, especially considering he is likely going to run for president. Curbon7 (talk) 20:10, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, if there's a story there it will eventually be reported by reliable sources. We haven't gotten there yet. Nemov (talk) 20:14, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The assertion is not in Wikivoice (which would trigger the concerns expressed here), but merely, "According to a November 2022 interview with former Guantánamo detainee Mansoor Adayfi, DeSantis oversaw beatings and force-feedings of detainees." Harper's is a reliable source and the sentence is appropriate for inclusion. JArthur1984 (talk) 20:38, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That's correct. Harpers is RS for the attributed statement in the interview. And the Florida Bulldog goes into quite a bit of detail about the allegation, also lending it WEIGHT. As to what DeSantis says, we will certainly include reporting however RS present that when he chooses to comment. SPECIFICO talk 21:09, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

JArthur has removed the Florida Bulldog (whatever that is) report which is fine. This is a very serious allegation by Adayfi and will need to be supported multiple WP:RS to justify inclusion. A transcript of a podcast fails that standard. Like Curbon7 says above, if there's legs to this story it'll eventually be picked up elsewhere. Nemov (talk) 21:17, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Harpers, RS, has made that evaluation. Your argument applies to stating it as fact in Wikivoice, which we are certainly not going to do at this stage. SPECIFICO talk 21:30, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please review WP:BLPPUBLIC.

If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article—even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it. If you cannot find multiple reliable third-party sources documenting the allegation or incident, leave it out.

If you can provide multiple reliable third-party sources for this allegation please feel free to make the addition. Nemov (talk) 21:42, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think you are misinterpreting WP:RS. In particular, WP:BIASED does not say that a source cannot be reliable if it is biased, but rather that "although a source may be biased, it may be reliable in the specific context."

Eyes Left is clearly a biased source. However, the claim here is simply that Mansoor Adayfi made these allegations about DeSantis, and it seems to me that an audio recording of him saying that is clearly a reliable source for that claim. 2601:281:8780:4B70:9D61:CAB9:D493:B537 (talk) 02:55, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We have a reliable source that the claim was made, but not multiple ones documenting it, nor any indication from any reliable source whether or why the claim is (or might be) credible. Anythingyouwant (talk) 03:02, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Our job is not to assess claim reliability. It's to assess whether the claim was made and whether it is relevant. Harper's is certainly a reliable enough source that we can assume the claim was made.

I think the relevance is clear too. This is not a random person who made the claim - it is someone who is known to have been at DeSantis's workplace when the torture was alleged to have occurred. There are absolutely reliable sources showing he was at the facility at the same time as DeSantis (see the NYT: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/us/guantanamo-bay-detainees.html#detainee-441) Fastidiously (talk) 16:43, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also, Harpers did engage in journalism when they republished the interview. Their own page makes it clear that they tried to (but could not) falsify the claims through reaching out to Ron DeSantis for comment. Fastidiously (talk) 16:56, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Multiple reliable sources do verify that the Mansoor was a Guantanamo detainee, and it was during the time Desantis is said to have worked there by reliable sources. 73.128.210.80 (talk) 17:00, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• I think that the (just-removed) paragraph citing this was misusing it as a source. The source's focus is on In his run for governor this year, DeSantis is spotlighting his time at Guantanamo as a key credential. Yet details about what exactly DeSantis did during this historic period are limited. DeSantis' campaign declined to make the candidate available to discuss the experience, generally emphasizing that few details are known. Taking a source like that and using it solely for to quote praise for DeSantis from military figures who worked with him (who are, obviously, people whose opinions are going to be biased about him and about Guantanamo Bay as a whole) is giving their views undue weight and misrepresenting the focus of the source overall. I don't think that source should be used in any context, since the main focus of it is that it doesn't know the details. --Aquillion (talk) 23:08, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Accusations that DeSantis was involved in torture should not be included until there is significant reliable source coverage. The fact that the NYT, WaPo, CNN, etc. have not covered this means it shouldn't be covered yet under BLPPUBLIC. Iamreallygoodatcheckers ^talk 02:24, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In what world is Harper's not a reliable source? They are not politically neutral but they are well regarded - certainly the article should be viewed as a reliable confirmation of Mansoor's statements. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fastidiously (talk • contribs) 16:37, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It is. Additionally, Miami Herald has now covered the Adayfi statements, as have other RS. I restored to article with the additional citations. JArthur1984 (talk) 20:43, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Curbon7 was indeed correct. The Miami Herald article did a really good job with their article.[4] There appears to be enough to warrant some kind of mention, but there's a bit of conflicting information. I've adjusted the inclusion to read:

Mansur Ahmad Saad al-Dayfi, who was held at Guantanamo alleged that DeSantis oversaw force feedings of detainees during his time there.

That seems like it covers what we have so far that's reported in the Herald. Nemov (talk) 23:13, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@JArthur1984 changed[5] "alleged" to "stated" on the basis of MOS:ALLEGED. I guess I can go either way on that, but per MOS:ALLEGED:

Words such as supposed, apparent, alleged, and purported can imply that a given point is inaccurate, although alleged and accused are appropriate when wrongdoing is asserted but undetermined, such as with people awaiting or undergoing a criminal trial; when these are used, ensure that the source of the accusation is clear.

This is an unproven allegation with another person denying it happened. The alternative could read something like:

Mansur Ahmad Saad al-Dayfi, who was held at Guantanamo stated that DeSantis oversaw force feedings of detainees during his time there. Zak Ghuneim, the camp’s longtime cultural adviser denied the account.

Kind of seems long for what we know so far. Nemov (talk) 23:28, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Good point. I now favor alleged over the longer version, but I take no issue with either. JArthur1984 (talk) 23:52, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• No rush I suspect that many mainstream journalists and investigators are chasing down the facts, which are really quite unclear at this point. I would wait until we get a more comprehensive narrative as to why he was stationed there, his mandate, and how he conducted himself when he saw what was occurring. Otherwise readers will be making all kinds of unsupported inferences from our article text. SPECIFICO talk 00:07, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Agreed. Iamreallygoodatcheckers ^talk 00:17, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I won't be surprised if there's more coverage, but I'll be surprised if there's much else learned. Nemov (talk) 01:09, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• I agree there's no rush, but I think we're very close to having enough sourcing to make not mentioning this at all an NPOV issue. It's also mentioned in The Nation and a few syndicated copies of the Miami Herald piece in other Florida papers. I don't see that Ghuneim's view is likely to be due, but if we get a direct denial from DeSantis, it should be included per WP:BLPPUBLIC. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 01:36, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I tend to agree that we are getting close. However, I would like to see some more mainstream coverage. It's likely a matter of days before this goes mainstream, and I'm merely saying it's best to wait till then. Iamreallygoodatcheckers ^talk 01:46, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I think there's enough to include the passage @JArthur1984 and I worked out. Unless there's some other startling revelation that'll probably cover it. Nemov (talk) 02:16, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The DeSantis’ were married in 2009 not 2010 2A00:23C8:905:2701:C4C7:E2FD:BFEB:C02A (talk) 10:12, 3 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed, thanks. Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:07, 3 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

DeSantis' bio states that his most recent rank in the Navy was Lieutenant Commander, however there is no proof of this within his bio. Instead, it states that "he was promoted from lieutenant, junior grade to lieutenant in 2006," and "accepted a reserve commission as a lieutenant in the Judge Advocate General's Corps of the US Navy Reserve." I wanted to check-in and see if anyone has proof of his status as a Lieutenant Commander, prior to editing it down. Born of Iron (talk) 20:51, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's been mentioned in previous press releases and it hasn't been refuted. It's also been reported here[6]. Nemov (talk) 21:04, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This article currently lists his books including "(2011) Dreams from Our Founding Fathers: First Principles in the Age of Obama. Jacksonville: High-Pitched Hum Publishing". This is a self publishing / pay-to-print service per https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/2008/12/08/author-turned-publisher-seals-deals-lives-dream/16003437007/ and this should be noted in the article.Dialectric (talk) 14:52, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see why this matters? People with high profiles self-publish books all the time. It's only listed in the Publications section, not in the prose itself. Curbon7 (talk) 18:40, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure why this was reverted as a ref idea, so I'm listing it here:

• Inside Ron DeSantis's Politicized Removal of an Elected Prosecutor – The New York Times, March 11, 2023

Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 13:08, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]